Who are you reaching? //S06E12

You may very well be carrying out the Great Commission, but is there a group you secretly don’t even feel like bothering with? A type of person that you find yourself dismissing from your call to share the Word? Maybe because there’s something about them you aren’t a fan of, or maybe you’re truthfully scared. Regardless, there are some times where we find ourselves really believing there are those that don’t want the Gospel and so we just don’t even try. But maybe, just maybe, they’re hungrier for the Lord more than we think.

WHERE TO FIND JOSH::

VERSES FROM TURNING TO SAMARIA WITH JOSH PROCTOR:

John 14:1-3, 1 Peter, Isaiah 65, and 2 Corinthians 4:16. 

QUESTIONS TOUCHED ON IN TURNING TO SAMARIA:

• What is Side-B?
• How should Christians respond to gay friends or family members?
• What are ways to share the gospel with the LGBT community?
• What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

QUOTES FROM TURNING TO SAMARIA:

“I don’t want people that might hear this, sit there and say, well, I’ll never have anything, but you do, right. You have so much. If you have Christ, you have so much when things aren’t going our way, that’s in every aspect of this world, of this life, of everything that’s going on, when it’s not going our way it’s Yahweh’s way. It really is.”

The Pantry Podcast, Shea Watson, Turning to Samaria

“Until we all, you know, get raptured and recalled back to heaven, we are HIS estate on this earth. You know, each of us is the estate. And so the way that we conduct ourselves, not to add condemning pressure, but inspiring.”

The Pantry Podcast, Michelle Watson, Turning to Samaria

“We’re constantly under renovation, the name God stops renovating, or rather the day we stop allowing the Lord to renovate us and renovate our lives is that they will stop growing as far as the price. And I never really thought that I’d be able to say this when I’m going through it. But as I look back through the difficult times, the Lord has brought me through whether it be in real estate or just in life experiences, I must say like, I’m so grateful for those difficult times because it’s the Lord renovating my life and renovating me as a person as, as a son. And just really encouraged by that. “

The Pantry Podcast, Josh Proctor, Turning to Samaria

Annotated Transcript:

Shea: Hey, I’m Shea.

Michelle: And I’m Michelle.

Shea: There’s a battle being waged. It’s not flesh, it’s not blood, it’s spiritual, and we need to be prepared. The last thing a warrior wants on the battlefield is spiritual anemia. When the enemy attacks we need to be prepared

Michelle: We don’t always realize where the attacks are coming from or that we’re being attacked at all. This is the pantry podcast, and we’re here to remind you of who we answer to what we’re capable of, and how we are called to do it in every aspect of our lives.

Shea: This is season six, rewired when you’re saved, you’re saved for good, we all experienced sanctification differently. The more we grow in our relationship with the Lord, the more he transforms and renews our minds. The more we cut the cords of this world, the more we’re charged up in him this season, we’re arming you with the sermon of some of the culture’s most toxic snares

Michelle: Support our ministry, reaching the lost and found in over 50 countries with spiritual and literal nutrition. Every one-time and recurring donation makes a lasting impact, donate through Patreon or pantrypodcast.com.

Shea: And now let’s dig into the meal.

Shea: I’m just kidding. Hi. Oh, that’s my go-to…big surprise. No, tonight, today, maybe it’s morning for you wherever you are in the world where you’re listening to this, it’s going to be a good episode. Um, we have a really good friend that decided to come on and, and share with us because you know, when we think about Jesus, right? And we think about this commission, and we think about like going out into all of the world and preaching the canoes to everyone. That’s everyone that, that leaves nobody out, right? That is like absolute. That is like, there is no one that doesn’t need to hear how good Jesus is because he is that good. He met, he restores us when we believe he takes us from the old man, puts us into the new man and washes all old wineskins to new wineskins new wine and new wine skin.

Speaker 2 00:02:11 And look, then, then what are we, what are we then preserve, man, I want to be preserved, are preserved. I have Jesus Christ and we want people understand us, but what’s, here’s, what’s really important is, and I’ve read Luke nine, three, a little different this time. It’s kind of cool. Take nothing for your journey. Jesus instructs, right? Don’t take a walking stick of travelers, bag food money, or even a change of clothes. You know, when we go out into the world, we need to leave ourselves behind and we really, really, really need to tap into the holy spirit and let the holy spirit guide us in our conversation. So today, man, I’m letting Michelle take it from here and just introduce this awesome guests.

Speaker 1 00:02:35 Yeah. So today we have Josh Proctor, who is one of the hosts of the life, onside, the podcast, a show that explores the joy, beauty and challenges of living in the traditional sexual ethic as Christians who also identify as LGBT plus or same-sex attracted. Josh also served as the former director of strategic projects and foundations on the staff of LA Alianza Columbia church and the former director at we are life, a foundation dedicated to improving the lives of Colombian communities. He now serves as director of social media and Spanish translation posture shift, a religious organization that offers scripturally based guidance on reaching and loving LGBT individuals. So we are so happy to see you again, Josh, welcome. Hey,

Speaker 3 00:03:08 This is so good to be here with you all. I’m so glad I’m, I’m excited for the conversation we’re going to have

Speaker 1 00:03:12 No excited is such a good word. Like I just, I think like, I don’t know. I feel like you have to come up with another word and then I was like, it’s kind of your tagline and it’s, there’s no better word. You know,

Speaker 2 00:03:21 People actually start saying like, dude, I get so excited when she says he’s excited. Like pass it on. So really cool.

Speaker 1 00:03:29 Yeah. So let’s start the conversation. You don’t need to have your whole testimony laid out in front, but just like, where’s your heart on this idea? This episode is called turning to some area. So where’s your heart in this issue of reaching people that a lot of people would say, yeah, that’s, that’s not my calling or that’s not my anointing, you know? Like what, what’s your harness? What’s your, what’s your story?

Speaker 3 00:03:47 Yeah, absolutely. Like, um, I mean, obviously I’m going to get into a specific part of it. Um, because when it comes to my own personal story, God has walked with me through a lot of different stuff. Um, and through many things, some of that might come up, but, um, after I had a time of coming to God and, um, giving over my sexuality and what I mean by that is like, for a while I had tried to become straight. I felt like I had to change my attractions and it just didn’t work. And then I thought, well, I’m just going to go find a boyfriend. I’m going to have a husband. And, um, ultimately through walking with God felt the call that that was not what I was supposed to do. And so I left my relationship and I just came to a place of going.

Speaker 3 00:04:18 I’m just like, not going to have sex. Like, that’s it, I’m just going to go forward in life and do ministry. And I just stopped being involved in the LGBT conversation at all. And I was like, I don’t know what to do with this. So I’m just going to be celibate and go on. And then, um, what happened was, um, the pulse nightclub shooting in Orlando happened and back in, um, my clubbing days, I used to go there, um, before, um, uh, before coming to Christ and I knew people that were there. Um, and, and for anyone who doesn’t know a few years ago, I think it’s out three years ago, um, a shooter went into the pulse gay nightclub in Orlando and shot and killed 40 donut in about 49 people or so, and wounded many others. Um, and seeing this and seeing a place that I knew personally and, um, people dying and knowing people that I know, I just, it was the first moment I felt God saying what, um, your family needs you.

Speaker 3 00:05:00 And I’m like, I was living in Columbia, south America at the time. And I’m like, what am I supposed to do? Like, I’m a kid. I don’t know what to do from here. And then later on, I was doing my masters in, um, my master’s of divinity in, um, New York. And so I was there for a class cause it was an online degree, but we had a class and intensive class for weeks. I was in New York and I was just walking around and I went into the Chelsea area and like hell’s kitchen was predominantly gay. And then I noticed that there were no overt churches. I went into my class and my I, which was a missions class. And my professor could see that I was a little bit annoyed and I explained to him, well, I went around Manhattan, you see obvious searches everywhere else.

Speaker 3 00:05:31 But then you go into the gate area and you don’t see anyone. And the professor was like, well, you know, the gay community doesn’t want the gospel. And it was like, so you don’t go. Like, who says that? Like, what are we going to say? We’re not gonna go to the middle east because Muslims don’t want the gospel. No, you go because the gospel is for everyone. And that really got me onto this understanding of reading the great commission. And I had always heard the great commission from this idea of like, it was geographically based like Jerusalem is your city. Judea is your state. Some areas are country. And like the rest of the world, the world. And for me, I was like, I don’t think so, because if you look at like Roman geography, some area was not the territory where Judea was connected, they were next to each other.

Speaker 3 00:06:03 So it’d be more like B like for me in Florida, it’d be like, be my witness in west Palm, Florida, Georgia, and the rest of the world or something like that. And I was like, okay, so what is this? And I really began to feel as I studied it more that the reason why Jesus mentioned some area is it’s the people group that he knew his disciples wouldn’t want to go to. And he was trying to explain to them, you are my people, you are my witnesses at home, but also to the people that you don’t like, and you would rather, God not save or like in the Jonah story Nineveh, like who is that people group that you just really would not want to do. And so that just got me onto this passion as specifically in my context, the LGBTQ community, but, um, really for anyone like who is that people group that we just don’t want to know God, and then how can we go and reach them?

Speaker 2 00:06:41 Right. You know, as you’re saying this, it’s amazing that like, God uses the body of Christ. So, you know, I’m not an ear, maybe I’m a nose and you know, you’re an ear and you know, there’s different people that we can talk to. But I mean, we say that a lot, but then, then sometimes we get too focused on the group that we feel the most comfortable with. Right. And so we go out there and we’re like, okay, well, y’all got man. Let’s do with tattoos. I got here, man, look, yeah, he can’t throw nothing at me. I’m good. Oh, that dude on the corner selling drugs. Oh man, I was there. I got that, man. I’m cool with that. I’m done with that. But what’s really hard sometimes is to cross that line into the uncomfortable area. And I think that sometimes that’s what we see.

Speaker 2 00:07:11 We see that people are afraid to cross the line into the comfortable area. I think that sometimes the church, and I’m not gonna say all churches, you know, I’m not a hundred percent around anything. I think that there’s a lot of good people out there. And I think there’s a lot of good narratives out there. And I think a lot of it is, and why we have a podcast like this, why we invite our friend, Josh to talk is because we want people to feel a little bit more comfortable crossing over those lines. You know, I remember a trip to Panama. Like we were going to Panama and you know, anytime you come to even a border, okay. And you’re not, you know, you’re not, you’re not Costa Rican. You’re not Panamanian, you know? And you’re like, Ooh, I’m going to a board because all my years of military crossing borders, I’m asking, that’s a scary place sometimes. Yeah. But you know, but in the military we still crossed the borders in our mission trip. We still crossed the borders and we need to be able to cross these borders and, and go out and meet people where they’re at. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:07:52 It makes me think of a story. Well, it wasn’t a story was actually a question that I asked a student that was visiting with me back when I worked at a university and she would, she would visit because she knew I was a believer. And so she would ask me questions. She was, she is a believer herself and she’s also black. And we were talking about the gospel and the power of grace and the great commission. And I said, there’s some times where God’s going to call us to put down what we have a right to and pick up the thing that almost turns our stomach. And she said, well, what do you mean? I was like, well, it would be like someone burning a cross in your yard and you know, who did it? And would you come with the gospel to them? She admitted.

Speaker 1 00:08:24 That would be incredibly hard. And that, that really challenged her. And sometimes you’ll see that in the Christian community, the group that has been so demonized by the media against you, cause we’re pit against each other in the media, you know? I mean, there’s, there’s what happens in your own life. But then there’s also what you’re told happens outside of your life, to the group you identify with. So you have two groups that have been pitted against each other on a narrative level and, and a real level. And so if let’s say you have no experience, but you’re already expecting the worst. You’re already scared. You feel like I have no place to stand here. I have no idea what to say. Like what you heard, you know, they don’t want the gospel and yet they’re human and we, and we’ve been made that a part of us will always crave the gospel, even if we deny it ourselves.

Speaker 3 00:09:01 Yeah. I really think like, um, so my denominational background, not like growing up, but that I’ve been connected with the LA Viansa is the Christian missionary Alliance. And the one thing I love about our church, um, is that missionaries in our names like, and so the, the very like DNA is that we are all missionary. It’s like, that’s the role of every single one of us. And I think sometimes that we, what we can sometimes do is we have a very easy time talking about international missionaries, knowing that they’re going into insane situations where like, people are not living out gospel lives. Like they’re not living out like, you know, Christian community and stuff, but people, the missionary goes there and they go among the people and they are just God’s witness loving people, bringing not just the message of salvation, but just that radical love, like what you’re talking about.

Speaker 3 00:09:38 Like going to the people that have shown us the most violence and most hatred and showing them love instead. And like, we have an easy time understanding that that’s the situation that missionaries overseas go to, but then we forget that we’re missionaries too. And God calls us to do the exact same thing. And then we go, I could never go into that situation with those people. And it’d be like, well that’s because that is what God calls us to. He calls us to eat with the tax collectors and sinners and to show them God’s love, like, because we have also been there. And so, um, I think it’s just that, that radical community, that radical life that Jesus lived, that we always have to remind ourselves that we’re missionaries too. And God has called us to that. And, and I think then a lot of that comes with that radical grace and that radical love that we can, that we have sometimes have to show even to a people group, even to a person that was, has shown our community or us like,

Speaker 2 00:10:23 Right. It’s like Nineveh was wicked y’all, but it took that one, not so willing participant to take a message of see that’s, but that shows the strength of God’s message that shows the strength of the holy spirit. When, like I was talking about at the beginning, it’s, you know, we need to leave ourselves behind and really walk in the spirit, talk in the spirit, let the spirit be our voice because it’s him, who’s going to get through through the layers. And you know, I look, I’m a social media do Tik TOK. Hello. I think I shut that up, but I, but I, I w I go into some of these conversations just to watch, I don’t, I don’t participate. It’s not mine. It’s not what I do. But what I do is research. I like to see where does it fall apart? Where does it break down sometimes, you know, uh, you know, somebody’s a Christian goes out there and just blast, which come on, guys, come on.

Speaker 2 00:11:07 And then sometimes the Christian goes out there and like, loves, like, you know, tries to put the love down. It’s amazing how quick they fall apart. It’s like, they put the lid down, they get beat up a couple times, but it’s like any changes. And then there’s the ones that just posing in as the ones that love us, that like, like me, I go in, I see something. Right. And I think here’s, here’s a good position. Watch missionary work is not always speaking. Sometimes missionary work is on your knees praying. Yes. And so I sit in there sometimes and I just pray for these people. Look, they don’t even know I’m praying. In fact, there’s, I think I heard someone today that it’s offensive. If I pray for you, you don’t, you don’t give me permission. Somebody wrote that the other day and I’m just like, okay, whatever, I’ll sit there to pray, but I go and I pray over these people because that’s what I can do right now.

Speaker 2 00:11:42 You know, when I go outside, I mean, we definitely live in an area right there that has no need or feels like all their needs are satisfied. And so we definitely understand the rejection. We definitely understand. And so we’ve had to adjust the way that we approach people and maybe that’s what we need to do. You know, he says, go out and love your neighbor, love your enemy. You know, love people. And when I say that, I’m not talking about any other love than a copy, love, love, that speaks truth. You know, it brings truth, you know, let them see who you are. And I think you do that. And now there was something that I remember talking to you about, um, because I think this is good for churches to, to, to know, is that didn’t you say that you do go to churches and help them and teach them and help them understand, you know, the LGBT a little bit, how to reach them. So what is part of that? What is part of that when you do that?

Speaker 3 00:12:22 Yeah. So, um, that’s related with posture shifts, the organization that I work with and what we do is we go in and train churches on how to approach, um, LGBT inclusion and care from a missiological model. And so the way we talk about it is many times people think that in order to love people, you have to change your theology. Like in order to love LGBT people, we have to change our theology. But what we say is you do not have to, to shift your theological position, but you do have to shift your attitude and your posture, the way that you love people and care for people that does not have to include changing your theology on marriage or sexuality. Like we, we hold to a biblical view that like marriage is between a man and a woman, and that doesn’t have to change in order to include and care for LGBT people.

Speaker 3 00:12:55 But like missionaries, when a missionary goes to a people group, like if we think of the LGBTQ community as a people group, um, when I mentioned it goes to a people group, they learn the history, language, and culture of that community by going, because you can’t, you can’t reach people. If you don’t speak their language, if you don’t know the context and they live, like if you don’t know the culture, you’re gonna do something wrong that offends them and it’s just going to close every door. And so what we do is we help churches understand, like, what is the history of the LGBTQ community, especially related to the church and like the pain that has been in between these two communities. Um, what is it like to grow up LGBT, which is normally what we talk about with culture and then language. Um, because even though many times we speak the same language, English, whatever language, um, there are ways that many times we’ll speak past each other in this conversation when the two communities mean two very different things by the very same terms.

Speaker 3 00:13:36 And many times, again, if we’re going to be the missionaries, if we’re going to go to a people group and want to share the gospel, we can’t just put our foot down and say, no, you have to understand my terms. And the way that I understand them, that we have to work within the context that people are at speaking the way that is going to explain and understanding what terminology means for them. Because if I go to you and I say a term, but I’m trying to be gracious and, and, and bring that about, but I don’t understand the context of what that term means for you and your situation. That’s gonna close the door. Um, and so again, it’s, it’s that understanding that radical shift of posture while also maintaining our theological position and how these two things need to stay together. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 00:14:08 I love that. That’s it? That is a rewiring. When you were talking about missions and love and calibrating the language, which is like a term that I’ve used, you know, about missions work, because, you know, when you leave your house, sometimes even in your own house, it’s a mission field. But this idea that we use terms that pass over whatever people group it is, we tend to forget that the world that we tend to shut down ourselves, right? What we know that like the world has a lot of views that are harmful to us if we accept them as truth. But we forget that the quickest way to disarm someone is to love and listen. And the fastest way to shoot up their armor is to come hard and require change upfront. And we end up doing things that are contrary to the gospel that we ourselves so desperately needed and accepted at some point.

Speaker 1 00:14:53 And when we, once we’re locked and loaded into eternal security, we then say, but this specific sin must completely go away before I’m comfortable engaging. Yeah. And so it’s important to have someone who can help people rewire the view, because the view that a lot of believers have is not actually in line with what Christ is actually saying. When he says to go out and to love. He’s not saying you have to accept everything. You don’t have to say it’s okay, but instead you have to pivot. You know, you have to, you have to focus on what is being said and listen, and then allow yourself to be comfortable and confident enough that the holy spirit is the one actually doing the saving that you’re bringing the good news. The rest of the work is on the holy spirit. And you don’t have to demand any change in that person whatsoever. That’s God’s job. And we have to remember, someone’s eternal security and salvation is more important than anything they do else in this life. That’s not our business as much as I want you in heaven with me, no matter what. Yeah.

Speaker 3 00:15:49 That’s so good. There’s so many good things that you shared there. Like I have like so many thoughts, first of all, I love her. You said sometimes the house is the mission field because many times, like I work with parents a lot and that’s many times what happens is like everyone, like in our culture normally now has someone that’s LGBT in their lives. Whether it’s a child, whether it’s a sibling, whether it’s a friend like, and that becomes like an opportunity for us to minister to people. And so like, it can be in your house can be with you and it can be with your child. And I think like something that happens a lot in our society, and this is general society, we’ve come to a place on all sides where we believe that there cannot be love without complete agreement on beliefs. Like, I can’t love you and you can’t love me unless you absolutely agree with me on all of these different things.

Speaker 3 00:16:28 And that’s not how Jesus lived. Jesus. Like we think that he, he, he ate with tax collectors and sinners people that I’m sure had very, very radical, different beliefs than him. Like he had zealots in his disciples, he had tax collectors and his disciples, people that had different views. And yet he loved them and he went to people all over the place. And so I think one of the bigger things that we also try to show with, um, with pastors and appearance is like, you can love your child. You can love your friend. And, um, the last thing that I would say there is that I really love that. You’re talking about like, ultimately we are not the voice of God in people’s lives. We can’t just say all of like, list out everything that’s wrong in their life and think of, wow, you know what?

Speaker 3 00:17:03 You just radically changed my mind. I’m going to change everything I’m doing in this moment. But like a conversation that many times happens is if I encounter an LGBT person who, the only thing they’ve heard about the Bible in out of a Christian’s mouth is that homosexuality is a standard you’re going to hell. And so then they get the mindset. The Bible’s not a safe place for me. And I go, well, let me give me an opportunity to show you that the Bible can be a safe place for you. And let’s go to the Psalms. So you’re going through something in your relationships here, here is a place that can be safe for you because ultimately if I can help people hear the voice of God in their lives and get the other clutter out of their minds, God’s going to speak to them. God is going to be the one that’s going to move them to grow closer to him, grow more like him and go forward in that.

Speaker 3 00:17:40 But I can’t be the voice of God. And ultimately, if I’m going to call out someone else’s sin, then I have to be ready to first call out this in, in my own life. And like, I think that’s like where we have to have the equal playing field. Like if we’re going to hold LGBT people to such a high standard that we need to look at how we’re holding straight people, she was such a high standard on sexuality as well, because we come to a place where we’re okay, like in churches, we’ll, we’ll be like, well, this is fine, but here, this is where we’re drawing the line. And like, not in a sense of then saying, we’re going to compromise on this area, but saying, if we’re going to call out one thing, we have to be ready to equalize the playing field. And are we going to talk about divorce? We’re going to talk about pornography in our churches. Um, this issues of sexual assault in our churches, like these kinds of things, um, and being ready to show that like, and as I said equally, like leveling the playing field, right?

Speaker 2 00:18:19 I think, I think that plugs in where we had Dr. Chris and he has a book, holy sexuality. And it speaks to this. It speaks to this idea of, of like, okay, in our sexuality, which is now a general base, you know, it’s like, now it’s like it covered that, that just covered the whole playing field and where my heart is, where my heart is. It with God is there with the world. And so then what I’m hearing is beautiful because I think even the apostle Paul, you know, we talked about Jesus. We also talked about the apostle Paul first Corinthians nine, where he says, you know, I am, I am going to put myself aside and be a slave to man, you know, first of the Jews, right. I’m going to become a Jew to be a Jew. Right. Let’s just say it right.

Speaker 2 00:18:46 Let’s do it. Right. So the Jews, I became a Jew that I might win Jews to those who were under law as under law, that I might win those who were under law to all those were without law as, without law, not being without law toward God, but under law, towards Christ that I might win those who are without lots of the weak I became weak. And that I might win the weak. I become all things, all men that I might by all means save some. He is saying right there, exactly what you were saying. We don’t debunk change, bring culture into, or, or adjust our theology. But we go to people with a heart to show them, God, I liked what you were saying. You know, they might not even understand. So some might be like, well, you know, they don’t even know God, how do they understand the songs?

Speaker 2 00:19:18 Because if they start going to the Psalms that is like walking up to God, right? That’s like, literally, like when, as you’re saying this, I was like, you know, which was, I was like, I was like, yeah, this is good. This is good because they’re walking up. Not to me, not to Josh, not to Michelle. They’re walking up to gospel. Could you imagine you give them this book? You say, look, read some songs or their phones, but you know, I’m an old school guy. So we had phone, these guys technology, all I got ya. But, uh, but, uh, they’re opening their phone in a time of need and going to assault. What, an opportunity for the holy spirit to work.

Speaker 1 00:19:49 Yeah. Because we think that how could it ever speak to them? Well, how could Jesus have ever spoke to the woman at the, well, she didn’t have the holy spirit in her, but she heard the word of God from the word of God. And it hit her. And in that moment she knew that that was true. She was speaking to yeah. And she ran to tell others because it transformed her life in that moment. And did it take away everything she’d ever done to make her incapable of ever doing something against God’s will ever again, no, but it transformed her and helped her come alive into the reality of what reality is. And so we don’t need to put so much weight. I think we put too much weight on ourselves when we consider ourselves missionaries. Um, and I’d be gracious because I haven’t, I’ve let that go because that’s the only way I can go out.

Speaker 1 00:20:25 There is if I take off the weight for myself, but as the church, so many people will tap out before they even try, because they’re not a people person. They don’t know what to say. They don’t know enough of the word of God. They, they don’t know how to reach the group of people that they would be reaching in that area of town that everyone’s going to today. Um, whatever, whatever, whatever it is. And we don’t realize in that language, some people might think that’s humble language, but it’s not humble. If it’s a lie, it’s just a lie. Right? Humble means is more or less of what you are just exactly what you are. That’s, that’s humility in God’s eyes. And so they’re taking on the responsibilities of the holy spirit onto themselves and psyching themselves out or allowing the enemy to put themselves in God’s shoes and psyching themselves out.

Speaker 1 00:20:58 When reality, we just trust in the Lord and trust, trust him to move in ways that surprise even us. Because when we go to the people that look like us, or that we’re familiar with, we know their lingo already. Um, he can use us there for sure, but that doesn’t, there’s a trap there of, I got this. And, and when you go out and you’re sitting at the bus stop, you wanna know what, who they are, how they identify whatever, and you turn to them and say, Jesus loves you. And you just take that shot. And something amazing happens. They break down. Cause you know, life’s hard, that’s God. And you can’t say, yeah, I got this in that moment. That was all God. And so he loves to use us in the uncomfortable to reveal himself to us and to show us the beauty and the power of his word over anything. I could crack it, sit there all day and be like, I got the perfect statement to read to the person. I mean, if I write this blog that tells people off, like, let’s go change everything. Versus if I use his words, I’m not even responsible for what happens.

Speaker 2 00:21:50 Always reminds me of that blog. Can you look it over? And I turned that thing back over. I said, can you put something loving in that?

Speaker 3 00:21:59 I don’t go on social media. Like I used to, because definitely that person I’d be like, I am going to tell this off completely. I mean, I do believe we do put a lot of pressure on ourselves sometimes with this idea of missionaries. But I think ultimately like, if you look at the story of Jesus with the Samaritan woman, what’s the first step he took. He went to some area like, because you evangelism sharing the gospel requires proximity and proximity requires trust. Like we have to develop these things. And there’s an amazing quote from a professor that once said, you have to reach people where they are, because you can’t reach them whether or not. Right. And so we have to go to them in that way. And I love it. I love the verse that you read, um, like about from Paul. Um, because I think it’s so good.

Speaker 3 00:22:33 He’s like, I’m, I’m all things to all people. And then as he talks about Gentiles, he’s like, well, but I am under the law, but I live with someone who’s not under the law and he’s trying to like, get everyone on that. And then ultimately he says, and I do all of this so that I might save some and some people then I can get so frustrated because they’re like, I have to get my friend to be Christian in a year. Like I just need them to, like now. And I was listening to an interview one time of someone who does, um, um, ministry work, lead the church in an indigenous community. I cannot remember which, um, indigenous community here in the United States. And they were asking them like, what do you wish other people, other church leaders would learn from the work you’re doing?

Speaker 3 00:23:03 And he goes, he was like, that time works differently in different cultures. And so sometimes like American missionaries would come into this indigenous community and think that they’re going to convert people in a year. And then they would be there for like five years. And then they’d get really tired. Cause like, no one, no one’s coming to Christ and they would leave. Whereas they don’t realize like part of that culture is it takes a while to develop relationships. And so you just finally get to the place of being for them to even listen to anything you’re saying after 10 years. And so like, we have to be understanding that like that God God’s word. Like this takes time. We can’t be the determiners of like, oh, it’s been a year. There’s been nothing in my friendship. I’m going to drop them. Or I can’t be a missionary and all of that, like, no, we have to, um, we just need to be consistent and honoring of the place that God has given us in our lives. And um, whether we are the ones sowing, the seed, harvesting, whatever we’re doing in our placement and people’s lives like being honoring in that and being responsible in that place that we have in the province.

Speaker 2 00:23:52 So good. Yeah. It’s it’s uh, number two, by the way, in the Samaritan story, get rid of the noise by disciples. Okay. Right now I need to, I need to handle the days because he might not necessarily agree in my approach.

Speaker 1 00:24:06 No, that’s, that’s such a good point because they’re like without naming any names, we’re very right now around the world, we’re very polarized. If you’re connected to the internet, you’re there. The enemy is trying to polarize you in so many ways. And um, and so team this team that this color, that color, this flag, that flag, whatever it is, um, if you, as a believer in Christ, fill your feed, think about it. The feed of a horse is where they eat. The feed on your social platform is where you’re consuming stuff. Um, and I’ll know if you, if you fill that feed with things that you are, have an allegiance to outside of Christ and you go there to feed and then you go out to feed others, what do you have to feed them? And so the biases of the world, and even the bias of other believers who have yet to be rewired in this way about what, how powerful and simplistic and for everyone, the gospel really is. You’ll get psyched out by them. You’ll get bitter to a group of people, um, because of what the people you relate to believe. Um, some people follow people in their feed that they blatantly disagree with just to see what the enemy’s up to. And still that’s, that’s making it so that you look at them like animals instead of like people that you could add to the fold, you know, that God wants to use you to add to the fold. So it’s a, it’s an important thing

Speaker 2 00:25:13 That noise shutting it down. So I, a long time ago, because I’m a statistics guy I had to give it up. I had to give it up to understand compassionate, to understand care, um, because I can come at you in like 900 different ways or I can come at you in love. Um, so I had to be, I had to silence the disciples, you know, so I had to push them away. Hey, why don’t you go get somebody? Jesus didn’t even need nothing. They came back with up, I’m already fed. I don’t need to eat what you guys are eating. But, so I changed my algorithm and my Facebook. So now when I opened my Facebook to do what we need to do for social media, right. Cause that’s what we, you know, podcasting, all these other things you have to, unfortunately I’ll have to be off the water, that stuff.

Speaker 2 00:25:50 But I learned to, to, uh, yeah, I’ll follow a lot of people, but ones that I would disagree with or that I’m like, really? What are you guys doing? Why, why? You know? And so now I open my feet and it’s like, Jesus, God, this is basically the prayer. And you know, and honestly, because unless you just are hiding in your closet and closing the door, you hear all of this stuff. If you have a job, you hear this stuff, how much do we need to pour into ourselves of the negativity that’s in the world instead of the positivity that comes through Jesus Christ. And so when I pour that in, now I can turn to my brothers or my, or you know, the brothers and sisters or the people around me and the community and all these things. I love them in a way that I’ve never been able to love them before. That’s because I shut down the world, the idea. And I brought in the godly idea, and now I can present his words. Not necessarily y’all Jaffe 16, beat you over the hit. No, but through my actions, I think that’s what you do a wonderful job of Josh because he was going out there and showing these people this.

Speaker 3 00:26:37 Yeah. I mean, one of the biggest things I always say is like, if we’re, and this, ultimately when we are reaching a person like, or were in a relationship with someone who’s LGBT, um, this happens on a one-on-one relationship. Normally it’s someone that is in our family or our friend group or something of that nature. Like people are not normally just like going out into gay communities and these kind of things. But like, I think ultimately when we’re, when we’re going into a situation where we’re coming from two different communities that have such a long, deep and difficult history, I think one of the biggest things that we need to do is begin to look, we, we need to start it from understanding where, where I’m coming from and how the person has been hurt from that community. Like, so even though I may have, like, I, when I have relationships with LGBT people, I come from it from the understanding of knowing that I can pretty much be sure that they have been hurt by the church at some point in their life.

Speaker 3 00:27:20 And that they, they were part of a community that has been very marginalized in the church has been part of that over decades and a century. Um, and so I think ultimately when we can start from the repentance of the place that we need to come from into the relationship, and this is not even just the LGBTQ community, whenever we have this like hostile kind of situation, when we can begin to start big thing, not from, oh my gosh, this is what they’re doing. Or this is what the other side of the conversation is, is saying that’s wrong. But coming up from it more of like, where is my responsibility? And where’s the place that I need to repent or that my own community has harmed them and caring for them in that. Um, like sometimes the greatest missions like work that I get to do is we at poster shifts, we have a justice fund, which, um, our justice fund is for, um, kids that when they come out, they’re kicked out of their homes.

Speaker 3 00:27:58 Um, we help them get a place if they are, if their college fund is cutoff, we help them get funding for school. We help them get a place. We had a kid in the United States who contacted us, um, last year, um, before, right before a hurricane was about to hit, um, his area, he had told his parents simply that he was same-sex attracted and, um, that he wanted to honor God and they kicked him out. Um, and cause they weren’t going to have a kid who was LGBT. He was living in a tent for two weeks and we were able to, um, even this kid who just keep wanted, he wanted to love God. He wanted to honor. God’s so much, um, being able to have the opportunity to say, Hey, look, we did a fundraiser, we got a place for him to stay. We helped work with his college so that he could like have, um, tuition and all this different stuff.

Speaker 3 00:28:35 Like that’s ministry, like being able to meet people where they’re at, the things that they’re going through, seeing the pains that they’re, that they’re facing and being able to say, here here is, here’s the gospel and we’re going to reach you in that moment. And um, like for instance, for me, like that’s some of the greatest moments that like obviously getting to reach people and care for people in the midst of such awful situations that no one deserves to go through. And so I think we, we have a lot of opportunities in our lives to just care for people.

Speaker 2 00:29:00 No, that’s, that’s, that’s a good boiling down point. So that is like meet them where that rubber meets the road. We hear that a lot. Um, I did have one question in there, cause these are speaking. It’s like, it’s like, you know, they were hurt, you know, they’re hurt by the church and, and this is just one of those questions. I honestly, I wouldn’t even know the answer, but, uh, do you think that sometimes, maybe it’s the condemnation feeling the, by the Bible speaks against, you know, against something, you know, you know, sexualities and, and the way that you should live life and things like that. Um, my position was that I believe that I wasn’t necessarily being condemned by the church as much as I thought I was being condemned by the church because of the guilt and the shame that I had, or is it, are you seeing that most of the people you run into have really been hurt? And when I say that it’s not just that they look at the Bible, the church and they say, well, they don’t agree with me.

Speaker 3 00:29:42 But when we look at the history of the LGBTQ community, especially in the United States, um, we find high levels of victimization or marginalization, especially at the hands of churches and Christians. Um, going back to, I mean, even just, um, I mean we can go back to world war two and the concentration camps and how, uh, LGBT people were, were rounded up in order to be put in the concentration camps. Um, then we can go to the aids, the aids epidemic, and how many times, um, churches played a high place in not caring for em, for people with HIV and aids, um, wanting to keep access from being given to, um, people in that realm. A lot of times the areas around the country where we see where there’s a high population of LGBT people, how a lot of those communities started was because kids would get kicked out of their homes.

Speaker 3 00:30:19 They would become homeless. They would go to a big city, they would all congregate together. They would create these just like tent cities of LGBT homeless kids. And a lot of that surfaced in that, in that way. We have many times, like we get in our ministry, a lot of different stories from, from kids growing up in church that have been, um, mistreated, um, even physically at times. And when you have kids, when you have kids like this, that are experiencing those kinds of things after a while they go, well then of course, I’m going to like go do what I want because like the church doesn’t care. I mean, even I’ve been kicked out of church before, um, before, when I was a kid. And so I think that there are, there definitely are legitimate ways. I think even just one of the numbers being a statistic statistic that I thought, why can’t I say statistics person, um, being a statistics person, um, there it’s generally believed about 3% of the population.

Speaker 3 00:31:00 Three to 5% of population is LGBT. That’s the general idea. They are finding that in the United States, 40% of the teen homeless population is LGBT. Um, and they’re finding a lot of that comes from Christian realms and families. Um, and so there is, um, there’s a really good book called us versus us by Andrew Marin, where he goes over the statistics of the faith reality of LGBT people and how so many of them end up growing up in church. And then many of them fall away. And the experiences that they have, I think that there definitely is a reality of marginalization victimization, but I will say there are many times now where, um, these high levels of marginalization victimization, there’s a higher level of bullying reality in LGBT people’s lives. There’s a high level of, um, uh, victimization in many different ways, um, that triggers and LGBT people, the flight or fight syndrome in many ways of just like I am continually being confronted by this stuff.

Speaker 3 00:31:46 So I am continually gonna have to figure out, am I going to fight in this situation or go away? And so then as adults, when they come in contact with a Christian who might say, like, I hold the traditional view of marriage, there becomes the production of all of the awful things that have happened in their life in the past, from Christians who have said that exact same thing. And so that becomes the view, the automatic view that we then have to prove that we are not like that. Um, because when you’ve had so many experiences of that before, it becomes hard not to expect that another person who says that they believe the exact same thing are not going to act the same way.

Speaker 2 00:32:17 Right. I think we can see that across the societal issue as well. People, these days just cannot have a different view without, for some reason banging heads on it. I mean, it’s kind of hard to find those conversations these days where it’s like, Hey, I’m Republican. Well, I’m doing great. Okay, cool man. Nice. It’s like, you’re a punk and I hate you. I hate you. But no, I get it. I get what you’re saying. That was an authentic question I have because like it’s not something I’m just, it’s not like that set up. No, it was authentic because I think that we have to, our pastor has said it, um, to the men’s group and also to the church. I think that, you know, are you ready to love someone from the LGBT community when they walk through that door? Now, I don’t know if we’ve ever been, you know, if that’s never, you know, no one’s openly walked through our doors yet, you know?

Speaker 2 00:32:53 Um, but I know my heart is a heart to love people, to have care for people and compassion. So I know where my answer lies. Um, what I understand completely all of the thoughts and feelings in some ways I would just because of my childhood, the molestation and some of the things I fought in, in identity. Right. Yeah. And so you kind of have that heart saying, Hey, you know, what, what went wrong? You know, where, where is this at? What’s going on? How can we love them better? How can we get them to Christ? Because in the reality of things, he’s going to be the restore. And once we receive them, he’s the restorer. He brings a newness to life. And I think that this is awesome. What you’re doing, brother. I think that you’re, you know, watch this guys, he’s a missionary. He’s not just missing.

Speaker 2 00:33:25 He’s not just sharing the gospel to the LGBTQ. Right. Because I don’t want to feel right. That’s the point. Yeah. This conversation is just to like, bring out another level, another area where this is, and I know Josh, I mean, come on, he’s in Columbia. He was, he’s been to all these different places, sharing the gospel to different people. And he is definitely one of those people who know that he loves Jesus and, and you know what enough to sit there and say, you know what, I’m putting away the world and I’m just going to serve you. And I love that. I love the obedience and that I love the love that’s in that. And how you,

Speaker 3 00:33:48 Yeah. And, and like, I would just really encourage everyone listening. Like if you’re coming into that place of going, how can I love whoever in your life is LGBT? I think just the first initial, most amazing thing you can do is just listen, ask honoring questions, ask honoring questions about their experience, about their life, about their partner. Like whoever they, whoever, whatever it is, ask, get to know them, try and not assume what you know about their experience, what you know about their, um, their background of faith, um, and or their background of why they, um, don’t go to church or why they believe this, or why they believe that like ask them. And I, the biggest thing I would say is start with honoring questions, um, try to get to know them. Don’t make assumptions. Um, Leslie Hudson Reynolds, our trans ministry director, um, they always say when you’ve met one trans person, you’ve met one trans person.

Speaker 3 00:34:30 So like, there are never, you’re never going to have this thing where you can just automatically assume things about their lives. And so if we can just start from that place of learning of listening, um, I think we can be able to see just much more gaining of trust and a relationship build. Therefore, like I’ve even had it where like, so in my, in my relationships, like my friendships in south Florida, most of my friends are non Christian. Most of them don’t understand my faith and most are LGBT. And so I went to him, had a friend go through a breakup. And, um, he called me afterwards after it all ended. And I was there for him. And I just had a question. I was like, so I just have a question. Like, why did you call me when like, you know, like our views are different and that’s perfectly fine.

Speaker 3 00:35:07 And I’m like, I love you. I’m so glad to be here and support you in this. But I’m just surprised like that you would call me. And he just said, he’s like, you’ve always been really, like, you’ve always been really honoring and respecting and caring and just like been there for me. And I knew you would answer like, and I knew that you would be there. And so even in the midst, again, love across a belief gap. Like we can, we can be able to have that. And that gives us opportunities to minister in situations that we would never think would even be possible.

Speaker 2 00:35:29 Love it. Love it, man. Thank you for just being with us today. I mean, it’s, it’s so edifying like, so like full,

Speaker 1 00:35:36 Ready to go out there when it raining.

Speaker 2 00:35:39 It’s a wrap, right? The apostle Paul crossed gaps. Sometimes he had to dust his feet. Sometimes he had to walk away sometimes, you know, but the idea behind it and you, you said it to you reemphasize the verse. It’s like, now this I do for the gospel sake, I said, I may be a partaker of it with you. Let me come on. Come on. That, that, that is, that is just it. And brother, we are so thankful that you came on the show.

Speaker 3 00:35:58 Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is awesome. I love what y’all are doing here. And I’m just glad I got to hang out with y’all.

Speaker 2 00:36:02 That was always awesome. It’s always busy everywhere. So it’s like,

Speaker 1 00:36:05 Like you’re S you’re closer now. Now you’re like eight hours away. So if you come down this way instead of 13 or 14, so now you can definitely, we can, yeah, we can definitely, we have yet to take Kaliyah up, up north, north and south. So yeah, but this has been, this has been awesome. Um, quickly tell people how they can connect with you.

Speaker 3 00:36:21 Yeah, absolutely. Um, so you can go to pastorrick.com. That’s the ministry that I work with and learn all about that. There also, if you go to life, on-site ba.com. That’s my podcast. Um, also you find it wherever you listen to podcasts and do it there. I’m not on social media, so not on there, but I, I just took the leap, but yeah, you can find out about all of my work on those two websites and check out the podcast and ministry. Awesome.

Speaker 1 00:36:42 And this week’s final question for our audience is what is one challenge you face when it comes to the great commission and living it out, and you can go to the pantry podcast.com. We have a new fun feature where you can leave us an audio clip, or you can type it in. And that way we can put it in a future episode or on social media. So until next time.

Shea: Bye.

Michelle: Bye.

Josh: Bye, everyone.

KEYWORDS: LGBTQ EVANGELISM. MISSIONS. CELIBACY. SIDE B. LIFE ON SIDE B PODCAST. POSTURE SHIFT MINISTRY. GAY FRIENDS. CHRISTIANITY. CHURCH HISTORY. STEP OUTSIDE MY COMFORT ZONE. LOVE EVERYONE. MISSIONARY.