Revelation 2-3 // SO8E4

The church is so important in determining how our spiritual lives are fed and taught. However, throughout history, even less then a century after Christs resurrection, there have been internal problems facing the church. Today Pastor Thomas Schaller joins us in examining Revelation 2-3, as John records a message from Christ to several of the early churches, exposing there sinful practices. He calls them and churches throughout history up to this very day, to no longer live in the darkness but in his light and grace.

Verses from Seven Churches:

Matthew 24, Jeremiah 33:3, James 1:22

For more about our guest:

https://ggwo.org/staff/thomas-schaller/?sermons-speakers=thomas-schaller

“So I don’t think it is enough that my church would have the right teaching. I think that’s primary and very critically important, but I think my attitude toward it, my attitude toward God, do I fear God? Do I trust God? Can I listen to God? Can I obey God? I think that that’s critically important. “

Pastor Thomas Schaller, The Pantry Podcast, Seven Churches

 “I don’t want to just walk around with a superficial Christian, outer shell. I want that stuff to penetrate into my soul and then come out so that I can love people the right way, shine the light the right way and be bold in the right way.”

Shea Watson, The Pantry Podcast, Seven Churches

 “It’s not about what you like, it’s about what works. And when you come to Christ, you know, what works is Christ, nothing else outside of the Lord, nothing works”

Michelle Watson, The Pantry Podcast, Seven Churches

Annotated Transcript:

Shea: You’re listening to the pantry podcast, part of the spark podcast network. Now playing on the Edify app. Hey, I’m Shea  

Michelle:  I’m Michelle, and this is the pantry podcast. Season eight road to Revelation.  

Shea:  We’re here to help you crave a healthier spiritual diet by teaching you to ask the right questions, seek the right answers in the right place. God’s word and break free. The junk food. The world wants to shove down your throat. 

Michelle: We live in a broken world. We can fall down in despair or rise up for our wedding day. This season, we’re looking at what it really means to be the bride of Christ in the end times. And the many things we can learn from the book of Revelation that will guide us today, tomorrow, and to the end of time.

Shea:  Join us and fellow listeners in 47 states and 66 countries. As we marinate on the word of God, clear the junk from our pantries and feast on real everlasting food.

Michelle: Support the show by sharing this episode with two friends that need a godly snack and becoming a partner at patreon.com/the pantry Podcast for as low as $5 a month.  

Shea: And now let’s dig into the meal. 

Shea: Hey, what’s up? And I am excited to be here. I know that it’s been seven seasons. This is our eighth season and that is my go-to. But Hey, I want to thank everyone who’s listening right now. I want to thank everyone who comes on and just, just takes in the word of God. We’re hoping that the Holy Spirit is touching you as much as he’s touching us, because I think that’s important. I think it’s important to hear what he has to say to us. I want to also shout out Judy Lynn Kovac, man, a very, very, very faithful listener who is always on. They’re always hitting us up, always giving us questions. And it’s just awesome to be here today.  

Michelle:    00:01:34    Yeah. And we also want to wish everyone a happy new year. It is January 4th and we want to also invite everybody on January 19th at 7:30 PM Eastern time. We’ll have reminders pretty much everywhere that you can engage with us, but we are going to be celebrating our 100th episode live. And we want to do that with you. Some more details. We’ll be at thepantrypodcast.com/100. If you want to figure out how to connect with us,  that’s just 1 0, 0.  

Shea:    00:02:02    We’re going to be at the 100th episode. I think that’s just awesome. So, Hey, we want to get in to this, this topic because we have a really special guest today and I think we need to hear these things. We need to hear about the seven churches. And then we also need to understand the breakdown of the seven churches. And then where do we stand in the church today? Because when I was thinking about this episode, it really takes me to Matthew 24, because I believe that we are in the beginning of sorrows. And so when you look at Matthew 24, you know, you hear all of these things, no one deceives you, you know, hears of wars and rumors of wars, you know, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilence, earthquakes in various places, they will deliver you up to tribulation kill. You will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake, we’ll be offended. But the verse that really stood out to me in this was verse 13, where it says, but he who endures to the end shall be saved. And you know, when you look at this word in the Greek, it’s like to remain, abide, not to recede or flee. And I think that as believers, we need to come to a position in our lives to where we understand where are we supposed to stand when it, like, when are we supposed to talk? When are we supposed to sit back and prayer? How bold should we be? Where should this boldness come from? And I think we have the perfect guest to bring us in on this topic today.  

Michelle:  Yeah. So today it’s really exciting. So we go to a Greater Grace Church and it’s very intimately related with Greater Grace World Outreach right outside or right in Baltimore. And so Pastor Thomas Schaller is the head pastor at GGWO and he’s been a pastor and a missionary for over 30 years. And he’s been incredibly influential. God has used him in Hungary and Finland in Massachusetts and Maryland. He’s inspired many people with his preaching to go around the world and establish churches for greater grace from here, India, South America, Africa. It’s amazing. And so we are excited to welcome him to the Pantry today and just listen to all the wisdom he has. So welcome Pastor Schaller. 

Shea: Thank you for being here.  

Pastor Schaller:    00:03:48    Thank you. Very good. Great subject. Very important. We are. I agree. We are in the end times, we are told that in the end times, the church in general will fall away. There’ll be a falling away with deception. How do we know we are in the end times, maybe shape. Maybe you want to comment on that. What would you say? Just a button of a short profile of end times  

Shea: I would just sum that up as Jesus Christ died on the cross, died and was born again. And from that point on, we entered the end times. What my question is always is, where did sorrows begin? You know, when, when we start to talk about the beginning of sorrows, cause I believe we’re, we’ve been in the, end time since Christ and, and I, and I learned that from a great church up the road from me, GGWO and the Bible college classes I take. But, this beginning of sorrows, you know, how do we know that we’re actually heading down that road?  

Pastor Schaller:  You can read, you know, the popular books that are in Christian bookstores today that cover the end times, Mark Hitchcock and many,  Dwight Pentecost earlier in 1950s, he wrote Matthew 24 you mentioned. And I think in the west, we see, Christianity in Europe,  where the churches are virtually empty, where people are not interested in Christianity. Secularism, humanism, atheism, a mortality without God. And so,  this is more and more common in the United States.  There’s a drop off in church attendance and so on. And then the teaching and the pulpits in the churches is also departed from biblical doctrinal viewpoint, Where we are drawn to,  the message we’re drawn to the Bible. We want an anointed spirit shield message from the Bible to see the flock. That was Paul’s view, when he wrote to Timothy 2 Timothy 4. But he did say that in the end times, some shall depart from the face. Now enduring sound doctrine, that enduring sound doctrine is a great phrase because it sounds like people cannot tolerate, dogmatism, you know, we have the culture of relativism and not absolute truth. So the departure from Epistolic teaching is connected with the whole philosophical direction of our time, which is there is no dogma. Everything is relative. And anybody that says that there is dogma, I have a gut reaction to it, and I don’t want to hear that  

Michelle: The itching ears that pick what they want to hear. And when I first came to Christ, I used to use something in graphic design and I carried it right into my faith. It’s not about what you like, it’s about what works. And when you come to Christ, you know, what works is Christ, nothing else outside of the Lord, nothing works.  But you know, the relativism that you, that you brought up the, what is truth, the what is, you know, the, the mishmash hodgepodge of different things? I used to say, when we were evangelizing out on the street, people would pick their favorite book, their favorite video game plot, and their favorite lyrics from a song and be like, that’s my religion, you know?  And I think, and I think that that’s very telling, we brushed up on revelation before starting the season and it starts out like when people think of revelation, they mostly think of what happens after rap, after the rapture, you know, after the Christians are gone, when the antichrist is in power, there’s trumpets, there seals there’s bowls. There’s a lot of prophecy, that’s hard to understand, but it starts with seven churches and there’s a lot to unpack there. And I think sometimes people skim over that cause they want to get to like the Hollywood movie stuff, you know? And, and so what if people are like, okay, so what are the seven churches? Like, that’s not my church. My church is first church of Christs tabernacle or whatever, you know, like they’re not the church of Philadelphia. So what do you glean from those initial chapters that can arm any believer today?  

Pastor Schaller:  Okay. I would say that the seven churches in revelation 2-3 are seven different descriptions of seven different kinds of churches that have existed in history. And I would say that within the first couple of hundred years of church history, all of those churches existed in some form that the profile described  by the church in Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea. They all have existed already in these, you know, first few hundred years, maybe 400 or 500 years of church history. So we’re 2000 years down the road. And probably you could go to many different churches in the United States and you could find pretty much every one of these as a type definitely worldwide. You could see every one of these as a type. So we could dig in and read them and kind of look at the profile and get an idea of, of first of all, that Christ does speak to his church. Even if it is a church that may be in an evangelical point of view, maybe is a dead church or a church that is departed from Epistolic teaching. When I say Epistolic teaching, I mean the teaching of the apostle Paul and the apostles. We read it, we read that teaching in our New Testament and those churches that are embracing those doctrines and living in some understanding and belief. And, you know, those believers in those churches are indeed embracing Christ as the son of God believing him, trusting in him, then we would hope that those individual believers are born again. And they are members of the body of Christ, though in their particular church, they may be a denomination that is departed, maybe a denomination that is not passionate to lead believing, but it is more operating as a machine or an organization. So all of this we read in these two chapters,  

Shea: I’ve always found it very interesting that in all of the seven churches, when you read like emphasis, it’s like, he’ll offer you the tree of life. There’s always this positive. You know, you hear all of this, like, this is the problem. This is what’s going on, but you know, you could have, okay, one of the church, the tree of life, a second church, some smearing, the right crown of life, you know, it’s just beautiful how God continually brings in grace, even in the worst of times, it’s like, God’s, grace is constantly there. And so when we look at this and we start looking at our churches, and I think it’s good from a leadership point of view, because I know that you’ve worked in the ministry. I mean, how many churches do we have nowadays across the globe? What, what number are we at now Pastor?

Pastor Schaller:  We have more than 700.

Shea: Right? So more than 700 churches and these churches have been founded off of what I would call sound, biblical doctrine.  and so when we’re looking at our churches and we’re leaders in the church, or we’re in, within our churches, what should the church hold fast to and relinquish in these days?

Pastor Schaller:  Two things come to my mind. Number one is the objective doctrine that you referred to the actual teaching that brings me to Christ. And then secondly, my spiritual condition personally, like to believe and embrace in an objective truth is one thing, but to have a heart and  the spirit of God in me, and to be connected with that truth in a personal way, somehow intimately believing and embracing it. So I don’t think it is enough that my church would have the right teaching. I think that’s primary and very critically important, but I think my attitude toward it, my attitude toward God, do I fear God? Do I trust God? Can I listen to God? Can I obey God? I think that that’s critically important.  

Michelle: That individual relationship with the Lord that you mentioned is so vital because that’s where the Holy Spirit will start to convict you in one way or another and nudge you and help you discern if this is a theologically sound place to be, we’ve heard a lot of people from a lot of different denominations feel like this isn’t, this didn’t seem right. And so they would re-pivot and position themselves elsewhere. But it’s  a comfort to know that you may be saved in a church. that’s not perfectly theologically sound because your relationship with Christ is so paramount, but then also, so you have what we should hold fast to what are some of the things that you think you can get as specific or as broad as you want, but the things that we should relinquish that we should run away from the things that you see threatening more than just one denomination, but like the church at large right now.  

Pastor Schaller:  Oh, I mean, my comment, I’ll make one comment about what you said, I think was very good.  When I go into a church and maybe their creed or their teaching is sound, but then as I’m sitting there, I’m realizing there may not be love. There might not be any, any kind of personal, excitement, or maybe that’s too strong, maybe just intimacy, like maybe, you know, somebody shaking my hand or welcoming me. I may be very cold. So when we read in these two chapters, we read that Jesus is saying this to some of the churches that you have a name that you live, but you are dead. Like he said, just sorry. So as an individual, I can be aware of this. And then I can, you said that I think pivot and I’m out of there. You know, I move, I move. I’m not, it may not be a good fit for me. But then there are people that maybe grew up in that church and they might have seen a departure or a coldness. And then the question is, do I stay? And, you know, how does God lead me? So that that’s something just to recognize that we don’t know how people should relate to their church. But I do think sometimes, if there is a wolf, you know, to use the metaphor that Jesus said, you know, that there are wolves, it’s John 10 and , Acts 20, and they may not spare the flock. And that’s not a good thing. So,  I need to, I want to go to church and be fed. I want to go to church and be edified. I want to be encouraged. Look at some people that have problems at home. They have problems at work and they have problems at church. That’s not a good thing. I could have problems at home, at work, but I can not have problems at church. I don’t want to go to a church and have problems there. I wanted to go to a church and be edified. My spiritual life is important, and I need that edification so that I can bring it home where I need help, and I can bring it to work where I want to bring a message. And I want to encourage people in the faith and say, come to my church. It’s a great place. The church needs to be healthy. And as pastors, we need to take that responsibility and read these two chapters of revelation 2-3 and take Jesus’s advice. And he said, repent to three of them. He said it to Pergamum. He said it to Sardis. And he said it to Laodecia. And perhaps, three out of the seven,  need to take that seriously.  

Shea:  Well, you just said that word, repent. I think everybody just ran away. But no, I think, I think that that’s really important. You know, I’ve got this three hours and I say it a lot, but it’s like, recognize, repent, recover. You know, I kind of used the, the repentance is that change of mind, but I recognize what’s going on in my life. I think spiritual temperature works out to what we’re talking about. You know, how is your soul in the church? I like what you said about the importance. So, you know, the church is important to have sound doctrine, but what is in your heart, what’s in your soul? How has that relationship with Jesus going? And so it was like, you know, you recognize these things. You repent, you change your mind, but you recover. And I think that’s the thing that we look for is that recovery, because like you were saying, you know, we didn’t have problems at home, we have problems at work. And if we have problems at church, man, that’s just like the triple threat, we’re done. We’re finished. It’s like, oh my goodness, what do I do now?  But I think that we have to be cautious. I think that we have to be testing our own hearts. I was at a conference with you not too long ago. And I think what really hammered me about like saying, you know what we need, pastor Schaller on the show was you were sitting there talking about, are you going to forget Jesus, start worshiping Baal, jump into bed with Jezebel and then have Jesus knocking on your door. And I think what made that so awesome for me was with the first three, forget Jesus, go to Baal, getting into bed with Jezebel , but have Jesus knocking on the door. It’s like, it’s like, we’re not alone. You know, in those three aspects, you think that we’d be forgotten? You Know. I was like, okay, whatever, but no, Jesus is still there coming after us. And so what are we called to be, you know, what are we called to be? And what traps should we be careful of as we move forward in, in the end times?  You know, I say end times, but I’m saying in the beginning of sorrows, I think we’re in sorrows. I don’t know if you would agree with that, but I think you might, I’ve heard, I think I’ve heard you say it from the pulpit,  because of everything that we’re seeing society, what we’re seeing in the churches, and we’re seeing this, this, this walking away from faith almost. And so what are those things? What are we called to be? And what traps should we watch out for?  

Pastor Schaller: You know, those four points are in these chapters. As you know, the church in Ephesus left their first love. So, am I forgetting Jesus? You know, I’m going through the motions. We have “Well I go to church.” I’m reading my Bible, but if I forgot  Jesus, you know, to rediscover him in that spirit filling, you know, this is an emphasis. I know that you folks, haven’t Silver Spring. And when we embrace very much, and it is really live a spiritual life and you know, you can learn to be a Christian, say the right thing, have the right behaviors, but to have an empty heart or a hard heart. So that’s the church at Ephesus. The second one was Baal, right? And that’s Pergamum, and then the third one jumping in bed with Jezebel, a false teacher, teaching idolatry and fornication that’s in morality.  Well how much sexual activity is there in the United States of America? How many guys, how many guys in college are sleeping around? How many girls are sleeping around? How much, how much pornography is happening every day? How much of it is in the church? Well, the true spiritual life satisfies us and it breaks us free from those strong desires and bad habits that are easily developed over a period of time. So the church may be filled with people that are occupied with Jezebel and the teaching of Baal  And then the fourth thing, Jesus is outside of the church at Laodicea knocking on the door. It looks like a downhill slide. I forget Jesus. I go through the motions, I get bored. I ended up sleeping around and just playing the game. And I get stung because he said, I was showing you in bed with Jezebel and kill all your children. And that happened with Abah who was the husband and she rebel, and he had 70 sons and Jehu came and killed all of them. What was a terrible penalty for the carnality? And then of course, the Laodecian, where is Jesus, you know, we got a rainbow flag on our front yard, in the church parking lot. We got a pass to who’s like, you know, from some place far away from God. And the reality of God, who’s gone through the motions, got his PhD and whatever. But where is the power? Where is the power? Where, where are the changed lives? Where is the church packed with spirits filled people who have found Jesus Christ? You know, where is that church? You know? So that’s a great scene. I’m so happy you picked up on that.  

Michelle: He came home so excited and he was like, I gotta tell you this. And then he’s gotta be on this season. And by the end, I was like, yes, he does get it, get him. Hey, you know, I love everything that you’ve been saying about this, the duality between, you know, the health of the church at large, you know, the four walls and the like the community versus the individual and how these things can either be a common, pervasive problem within the church, or they can be a common, pervasive problem in your own life. And every once in a while, I think of an analogy that fits our show’s title so well. And I think this is the one of the only times that it’s been so broad. But when you said, you know, the church is the place that shouldn’t have the problems.  

I thought of a cooking school, where all the people who need to be chefs, they all go, and those are the, those are the body members and they’re going to a cooking school. And they’re learning from someone who is a master cook. They might still get it wrong sometimes, but they know what they’re talking about. And they’re all working from the same cookbook, the word of God. And that’s all well, and good. Now you can have a cooking school where they start borrowing from other cookbooks or the chef doesn’t really know what he’s doing, or he, he says, he’s teaching you one thing, but he’s teaching you something else. He teaches you to cook on healthy food, but you can leave the cooking school. But the real question is what’s in your pantry at home. And that’s what we ask our listeners all the time. That’s what we asked you guys is what’s in your pantry, you’re going to cooking school. And then you come home. You would assume when I open your pantry up, that I would see things that you’ve learned how to use at cooking school. Assuming that’s a healthy place that you’re going, and that you’re getting sound teaching. I should see tools in your pantry. I should see that cookbook in your pantry. I should see healthy foods and ingredients in there that you’re constantly using and you know how to use. And the analogy is, okay, you’re going, let’s say you found the great cooking school, but then I open your pantry and it’s full of, ready-made like chips and junk food and expired food. And they’re 16, 17 different cookbooks. And maybe one of them is the one that you’re using at school. And you don’t have half the tools that you use at school they’re just missing. And maybe there’s a lot of takeout menus because you can’t be bothered to do it on your own hand. And I think that that’s that’s so that’s a great way to say, you know, it’s not just one or the other, there’s this intimate relationship. And that’s why he keeps us around one another.  I had a question on here and Shea keeps adding notes and I keep losing mine. So, so one of the questions right now, and you know, I’m on social media a lot, and I’m on.  

Pastor Schaller: I just want to reiterate what you just said. I think is very profound. I go to a good cooking school, but I can’t bring it home. I go to a good cooking school, but I don’t bring it home. It’s like, I go to a good church, but can’t bring it home. I can’t live it. I can’t bring it to my family. I can’t bring it to my friends. I can’t bring it home. It’s like there. But then, you know, I live my life, you know, and that’s not a good, that’s not a good picture as you said, but I just wanted to repeat it. Cause I think it’s fantastic. Bring home the bacon, you know, the home, the joy, the life, bring home the truth, bring it home. Your convictions, you know, it’s a funny thing. If I’d be praising God in the church and coming home and cursing my neighbor, you know, or my child, or, you know, I don’t like my wife. I need to learn. And that’s what you’re saying. I think it’s fantastic.  

Shea: That’d be like getting a free gift certificate to Let’s Dish, walking into Let’s Dish, preparing it all and then leaving it there and walking out the front.  

Michelle: I know, I don’t know any state this food. Right. I made it, it counts. I think the, like the, the other part of that would be okay, you’re learning all this stuff at church. And then you come home and it’s not the exact same situation. And so then you don’t know how to necessarily apply it. And I think that that’s, that leads us into that. The other question that we really wanted to bring up was when, like, when are we called to be bold,  and stand up? I think right now there’s so much going on. You don’t even have to pick a specific example even, but there’s so many different situations where Christians are being silenced, challenged, depressed, marginalized, even just people who don’t have the Lord are just being put in places. They did not consent to being put,  being barred from places they used to be able to go to. Churches are being told what to preach. It’s all a lot. And day to day, I think people are struggling with the question, okay. When am I supposed to rise up and fight? And what does that look like? Even if I just do it spiritually, even if like, when am I called to like gather despite. When am I, you know, like, when am I supposed to be bold? When am I supposed to rest? When am I supposed to persevere? You know? And for some that might, they might have a simple answer, but I think a lot of people are struggling with how to apply what they hear at church in this new climate that we’re all in. What, what would you say to that?  

Pastor Schaller:  I really wonder if the woke movement is going to survive. I kind of think it has a limited time. The expiration date is inevitable. I think so. I think we  cannot be, I don’t think it’s going to work. I don’t know. I hope it fails. We are geared to our freedom. We are geared to conscience and as believers, we need our conscience,  awakened to truth and embrace it and love it. I once talked to a man on the street who were actually was from India and he said he had many gods. And he said, what about you? I said, well, I have one god. He said, well, I have many gods. I said, let me ask you a question. How many mothers do you have? He said, I have one mother. They said, no, no, no. You could have many mothers. Even 5 or 10 mothers. Right? He says no, I have one. Okay. Would your mother be offended? If you told her that you have 5 or 10, would your mother be offended? I said, God, the living, God, he wants you to know him. And there is no other, so this is in my conscience and how I could talk to him was reasonable. And, but it was a discussion of conscience and he got to drift. And I think believers who are being taught by the Holy Spirit will have an awakened conscience to truth. And when people say truth is whatever you want it to be like, we, it doesn’t, it doesn’t smell good. It doesn’t go down. It doesn’t, I can’t swallow that. So when they force it on that, a little boy is a little girl or some of these very weird saying they force it on us. I mean, you go ahead. Force it all you want to, but it’s not going to work. We’re not that crazy. And there are a lot of crazy people, but I would hope that the majority of them are not that crazy. You know? And the Christian has a big role to play in our society. So let’s not apologize, but let’s live with good conscience before God and have our conscience is awakened to truth through Jesus Christ.  

Shea:   I like that. I like that. Taking it into the spiritual, you know, taking our, our cause.  one of my favorite verses in the whole Bible is he who has an ear, let him hear what the spirit is saying to the church, because I really believe in that I believe that we need to be dialed in. I believe that everything that we do in life as a believer needs to go through that lens.  Look, her mom is a beautiful example to this. She prays about everything. She wakes up in the morning. She has problems at work with a door knob, right? Like unlocking the lock at work and she gets up. She goes, well, I got to get to work first. So let me pray about that. Wait, I gotta get my coffee verse. So she prays about every day for all the way throughout the day.  It’s like every step, get in the car, pray for safe passage, you know, get to work, hope the key works. And you know, I used to think that that was like, wow, that’s a lot. But you know, the more we start to see society and we start to see the things that we’ve been talking about here. I think the more important it is to be in that position that you’re talking about, like being still in hearing what God has to say.  because I think that when we get busy,  and I, and I’m going to keep using this analogy because I think that this analogy has to be in play.  DC has 2,834 bus stops. I can sit there and look at every single bus stop as sin like, oh, this sin, or that sin, or this sin, or that sin, and it could become overwhelming to me. But if I take that step back and I’m still, and I start listening to what God has to tell me, and then I can start seeing it for what it really is. I can start seeing it for that battleground that’s happening,this road to revelation. These things are gonna happen. The, yeah, the woke movement, might die out out, but we’re still on a pathway and it’s a road to revelation. And so as believers, we need to be equipped. We need to be hearing what the spirit is saying. We got to stop listening to what society says. We need to test everything. If we’re not testing it, we’re doing ourselves a disservice. I love pastor Schaller, but I never tested in a sense. I’ve never tested Pastor Schaller in a sense of like, he’d got it wrong. I like to go and see what he’s talking about.  Just like Pastor Shibley or Pastor Brent or Pastor Bryant. I just, I hear it. I write it down and I go look at it and I observe and I soak it in and I absorb it because I want this to be a part of my life. I don’t want to just walk around with a superficial Christian, outer shell. I want that stuff to penetrate into my soul and then come out so that I can love people the right way, shine the light the right way and be bold in the right way. And so when we go forward in that, like I heard you say, awaken, and, and you gave a great description of that. And I don’t know that everyone always understands that term. Cause I love that terminology. People go like “I’m woke” and I’m like, well, I’m awakened. I mean, I kind of come back and then they look at me like, what is that? I don’t understand that if you were to explain awakened, you know, in a simplified really, really, you know, blurb, what would you say? I mean, you’ve, you said a lot, but I, I think that sometimes people get lost in like maybe dogma, you know, you said dogma earlier and people might be like, what is dogma? Cause I think that’s gotten a bad name too, but,  so maybe those two words, dogma and awaken kind of like break it into a point to where people really kind of absorb it and understand it.  

Pastor Schaller: Okay. The word dogma. I mean, a very good example is mathematics, another one is history.  So there’s objective truth and mathematics is like a real science of logic and reason and in numbers and because of mathematics, we have our iPhone and we have airplanes and we have buildings that stand up and bridges that hold weight. Mathematics is important, but you can’t lie. And a banker, a banker uses mathematics to run his business. And, and if you lie, it collapses right. And same with, you know, like this is a parallel to life. Like truth is important, but you could also teach in history class that Napoleon Bonaparte is Chinese, but no Napoleon Bonaparte was French. No, he’s Chinese. So like, I feel he’s Chinese. Well then  then you’re not a good historian and you’re not telling the truth. And also if you do the same in mathematics, your bank account, they’re going to cancel you out of your, you know, you’re not going to have a bank account. You’re a liar. So it’s so funny because in our society, there are areas where truth is required and, and its dogma, it’s black and white, it’s either true or an error. You can take a math test and actually educators that are considering changing math so that you, you know, like people that don’t do it well can still pass. Like we are lying, you know? So this is a violation, but when it comes to religion, they don’t want dogma. But when it comes to engineering, it is required when it comes to medicine, it is required, when it comes to history it’s required. But when it comes to religion, don’t ever talk about it. Religion is another category. It’s all subjective. No! Life is not designed that way. You know, we have to be honest, you know? So that’s that, that point.  

Michelle: Yeah. I think that there’s, there’s the people who will buy into a lie because they never really knew the truth. And I think that one of the biggest threats to the church of those who genuinely believe the Bible is true, but may not know it as well as they want to one day, or they might be under unsound teaching. They might have the right book, but the wrong teacher,  a very dangerous thing. And it, and it’s a Luciferian thing, you know?  But the, the humiliation and mental gymnastics that can be done to a person when you continue to proclaim a lie to them and they will eventually agree with it and tolerate it and live and accommodate it. But they don’t believe it. And it’s all, it’s like, demonically, it’s worse than just being fooled because you never knew because it’s like Adam in the garden, he knew and yet still ate. And that is another trick of the devil. I think some people think that if you concede and humor it to get by in some way that it’s okay. Because you’re, you’re doing it to get by when really you’re Adam. Eve was deceived. We see it biblically Adam, it doesn’t say he was deceived. He said, he just did it. God’s straight up, told him no, he knew the truth. He accepted the truth. Did it anyway. So Satan inflicted it the same lie on them, but in two different ways. And so in the church, I think that that’s a very important difference. The people who are like, no, this is, this is the way it is. Like, what is truth? You know, like that, and the person who’s like, well, I’m just going to cater to it. I’m going to cave to it because then I can keep being comfortable. Right. You know, I can keep going and, and both have a place,  as a threat in the church.  

Pastor Schaller: Yes. Well, I lived in a communist country and I saw, imagine new people that embraced communism, that then when it collapsed and then it had collapsed long before it had collapsed internationally. And it brings shame on you when you are believing a lie. And then it’s discovered,  but we, we should have that happen to all of us in life that I was, I was asleep and now I woke up. I was diseased, but now I understand better. I mean, it’s very healthy to expose yourself to the truth. And it is sad when people stay away from the church to protect themselves from that shame, they don’t want to wake up. They may know they are believing in something that may be proven to be wrong, but they would not run the risk of the exposure. It’s like a man not going to the doctor cause he doesn’t want to hear about it not listening to my answering machine at home when I come home, I didn’t want to hear about it. You know, I remember maybe earlier years, your grades for school would be posted in a public place in the school, but I’m not going down that corridor. I don’t want to get exposure to what’s going on. This is all a common thing with people and it’s beneath our dignity. We must expose ourselves. We must seek and find, and we must be, we must have our churches that are telling you the truth, regardless of whether people like to hear it or not.  

Shea: And so on that like hope, right? How would you say that all of this, this road to revelation is hope because, I mean, this is the season. People are gonna be hearing us talk about this road to revelation. And sometimes I’ve been called fatalist because I’m like, well, we’re headed to the road of revelation. And I’m like, but, but I’m happy. I’m good. They’re like, you’re a fatalist. I’m like, no, this is the end. You know? And I’m not saying this to unbelievers. Cause I mean, we got to understand that there are there’s capacities here, but this would even be to believers that sit there and call me a fatalist. And I’m like, no, but this is where we’re headed. So instead of putting the fatalist ideology towards like people put towards me sometimes because of how I view this, because I look at it as a battle, I look at it as a war, but I looked hopeful in this war. I look as victorious in this war. So how would you lighten people up and be like, Hey look, but there’s hope.  

Pastor Schaller: Okay.  well before revelation, chapter four, where we see the world come in apart, come into falling apart. I mean, terrible catastrophic things that are happening from chapter 4 through 19. Chapter 19, we have the tribulation period and a whole unravel, a huge deception worldwide, globally economy slaughter, all kinds of terrible stuff going on. Well, before we get to chapter four, were in chapters two and three and we’re right now in that church age. And we see Jesus saying to us, come on, let’s go. I have the list here. He’s saying, do the works you did at first to the church at Ephesus. Then he said to Smyrna, be faithful unto death. Pergamum, repent. So I had Tyra keep the face strengths and what remains to Sardis. He said to Philadelphia, keep the faith and Laodecia, be zealous and repent.  So then as you mentioned earlier, he follows it up with a promise. I will give you the tree of life. I’ll give you the crown of life. I’ll give a hidden manna and a stone with a new name. I make you a ruler over nations and receive the morning star. I’ll make you faithful, honored, and clothed and whites, a place in God’s presence, a new name and the new Jerusalem and a pillar in the temple of God. And then,  have you share in my throne, he said to Laodecia. What could be greater than Christ promising us, if we could overcome. And of course, some people say the book of revelation chapters two and three of you do not overcome, you’re not saved. We say rather we are saved, but we’re were provoked by him to be obedient, to be submissive and to overcome in a practical way in everyday living. And then we will have reward. Not that we can lose salvation, but we will have rewards. And so that’s what we’re in this life for to be, to be really,  on our game to learn like you’re saying,  and to be awake.  

Shea: love it. I love it, man. It’s I think this is a great place to, to call it. Cause I mean, encouragement, truth, a great pastor who, who is just that. I love hearing the word of God from,  and, and as I’m sitting here thinking, I think of Jeremiah 33, and as we, as we kinda wrap this up, this is call me and I’ll answer you and tell you great and unsearchable things. You do not know when we are tied into to Christ. When we’re listening to the holy spirit, he brings this hope, this understanding to the misunderstood, you know, it’s like the world. I don’t understand the world sometimes as a man, I’m like, I want to just, ah, beast mode, but God has constantly sifted me and told me, Hey, look, you know what? You might want to take control of this, but I’ve got control. Step back, listen to what I’m saying so that we can move forward together and be a force, a team in this current atmosphere.  

Michelle: Yeah. I’m very well fed. I think this is a great way to, to really kick off diving deep into the concept of this season. And before we go, do you have anything that you’d like to promote or announce to our listeners?  

Pastor Schaller: Let’s say let’s look at this coming year as a year, victory. We’re not afraid of COVID. We’re not afraid of government. We’re not afraid of restrictions. We’re not afraid of the church falling away. It’s the time when we can can find the grace of God Jesus has for us, and he will fill us and instruct us and use us. And let’s, we’re going to go to EUROCON and Poland in March by God’s grace. We’re going to have our convention in June, the last full week of June.  We want to see more  wake up to Christ and see church planting happen have closed. Churches are shutting down and buildings are being sold.  There’s a duress of pastors and a duress of teachers. There’s a departure, but that’s good. That’s okay. We are, we are alive. We are here for this reason and we have a ministry and you folks are doing a great job,heralding and getting the sound out there, blowing the trumpet. Thank you.  

Shea: Thank you for being on the show. We really appreciate it. Appreciate everything said. 

Michelle: Yes. Thank you. And for all of our listeners, you can get the show notes with all the Bible verses you can connect with us, support the show, all that fun stuff at thepantrypodcast.com. So until next week, bye. 

Shea: Thanks for listening to the pantry podcast. Subscribe to the show, wherever you listen and check out other great shows on the Edify app and eternity ready radio.