HUNTING FOR WOLVES WITH ALLEN PARR // S03E05 (EPISODE 33)

We’re called to check all things against God’s Word and watch out for those pretending to be allies when really their goal is to tear the Church apart. They’re out there, and they are dangerous. But, search your church, your pastor, or the Christian author or musician and it’s very likely you’ll come across “heretic,” “false teacher,” or “wolf.” Allen Parr joins us as we discuss what makes someone a False Teacher and when titling someone as such does more harm than good.

MORE FROM ALLEN PARR

Visit Allen’s Website | Watch The Beat on YouTube | Let’s Equip Academy | Read Five Keys to Unlocking Your Purpose

VERSES FROM HUNTING FOR WOLVES WITH ALLEN PARR

Matthew 7:15-17,2 Corinthians 11:4, 1 Timothy 6:3

QUOTES FROM HUNTING FOR WOLVES WITH ALLEN PARR

So I think there’s different levels, right? So there’s disagreement in non-negotiable aspects of the Christian faith, but then there are also disagreements on things that may not necessarily be non-negotiable therefore secondary issues that the Bible allows for there to be some sort of difference in opinion, if you will, but yet you could still be a Christian.

Allen Parr, Hunting for Wolves with Allen Parr – The Pantry Podcast

And our pastors are in the same confusing world with the same number of contradicting opinions as we are. And they also have the spirit. So how on earth, if they’re just like me, can I expect that much more out of them to all magically agree in a way that I can’t even come to a consensus?

Michelle Watson, Hunting for Wolves with Allen Parr – The Pantry Podcast

But if you don’t read before that verse and after that verse and you just pick out that verse, then that verse is going to say exactly what you want that verse to say, instead of what God is telling you that verse says.

Shea Watson, Hunting for Wolves with Allen Parr – The Pantry Podcast

ANNOTATED TRANSCRIPT

Shea: People out there probably thinking like, Oh, what is this episode about? But let me tell you something. It’s, it’s going to be a special episode. And the verses that we’re going to be kind of focused around are Matthew 7 15-17:

“Beware of false prophets who come to skies as harmless sheep, but are really vicious wolves. You can identify them by their fruit. That is by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from foreign bushes or figs from thistles? A good tree produces good fruit in a bad tree, produces bad fruit.”

The second set of verses is 2 Corinthians 11:13-15:

These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ, but I’m not surprised even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end, they will get the punishment. They’re wicked deeds.

We have an awesome guest today. That’s going to help us kind of dissect this.

Michelle: Yeah. So today we have Allen Parr, which we are super excited for this conversation. Allen is a licensed and ordained minister, and he’s been teaching the Bible for 25 years. In 2004, he graduated from Dallas theological seminary with a master of theology degree, with an emphasis on pastoral leadership. He’s also a certified instructor for walk through the Bible and a founder—and this is probably where most of you know him from—the founder of The Beat: a YouTube channel that teaches amazing Bible ministry that reaches thousands of weekly viewers and is the biggest reason why we reached out to him in the first place about this episode. He’s also the author of two eBooks, which we will link to in the show notes and mention more in-depth at the end of the show. And you can find out more about him and AllenParr.com. So, welcome Allen. It is great to have you.

Allen Parr: Awesome. Awesome. Awesome to be here. So excited to share this time with you all. I love what you all are doing and looking forward to a great conversation.

Michelle: Oh yeah, yeah, no, this is, this is actually a really near and dear topic to my heart. I’ve been wanting to do this episode with this title for about two seasons. We just weren’t ready for it. This is an episode we feel is like above our heads in the sense of we’re still wrestling and grappling with it. And so having you as a third voice, I think is really going to help bring some clarity and hopefully give our listeners a lot more to chew on.

Shea: We see it all the time. You’ll come across someone you’re like, Oh man, Oh man, I’m listening to him. Even Allen Parr. I’ll tell you if you look up Allen Parr’s name, there’s going to be someone saying that he’s precious on false. And it’s in everything that we see, everything that we do. And I’ve been watching your YouTube channel for a while. I mean, at least a couple years now because I’m like, I’m struggling with this topic and I go out to your channel and I find these, these topics in there that, that break this down exactly the way that I understood it from what I’m being taught. And so I’m like, okay, this, this must be the, the right theme because you know, this is what we’re learning in our local assembly. This is what I’m being taught in Bible college. So what are your thoughts on that? Like when you hear these kinds of things.

Allen Parr: Yeah. You know, I think the biggest thing is that we have to distinguish between a false teaching and labeling somebody as a false teacher. That’s a really big difference. And that’s a really big jump. For instance, if somebody doesn’t necessarily agree with every single thing that I say, that doesn’t necessarily mean that they should be labeling me as a false teacher per se, but there’s a disagreement.

So I think there’s different levels, right? So there’s disagreement in non-negotiable aspects of the Christian faith, but then there are also disagreements on things that may not necessarily be non-negotiable therefore secondary issues that the Bible allows for there to be some sort of difference in opinion, if you will, but yet you could still be a Christian. And, and so we have to kind of distinguish between those things. So perfect example would be baptism. So if I taught baptism by sprinkling, which I don’t, and then I have a friend of mine who teaches baptism by full immersion that’s not an issue because baptism isn’t essential for salvation. I don’t have the right to label somebody as a false teacher, just because they have a slightly different way of baptizing. So we have to distinguish that. Now, if I said, Jesus Christ was only a man and He was not fully God, then that’s a non-negotiable core belief of the Christian faith. And at that point, even then I would probably have to say, “Okay, is this a false teaching that this brother is teaching? And therefore, let me try to correct him.” And if he is correctable, then, you know, I’ve, I’ve won my brother over. And therefore he’s no longer teaching that or is he like he—or she—like, okay, hardcore, this is what I believe: Jesus was a man. At that point, I think it would be comfortable to label that person as a false teacher.

Michelle: Pastor James McDonald—And it was years ago—did a series of YouTube videos called The Elephant Room. And he brought a lot of different well-known pastors (all controversial in their own right) because that’s the nature of this, but he was sitting them down. And the overall goal was to have them discuss things that they seemed like—pick two pastors, um, Matt Chandler and Steven Furtick sat down to talk about the way they reach people and speak to their congregation. Over and over with each of these rounds of two pastors speaking, you could see that there were more similarities than differences when they all sat at the big round table at the end, they all agreed on the things that you’re mentioning that are the essentials. The overall message was that this of people all seem to, based on what they’re saying here, love the Lord, but have different ways of handling some of the topics that can be divisive.

But then you’ll also hear people condemn that entire thing, calling it ecumenical, you know, where you have all these different denominations coming together at the same conference or something like how dare you be speaking on the same stage as so-and-so who is, maybe, in fact, a false teacher. And I would say, well, if there are people that need to hear the gospel there, why wouldn’t you speak on the stage with the gospel to make sure they’re hearing the truth, but sometimes you’ll see. Well, the reason they are false is because they associate with false.

So, you hear so many things, but one thing I took away from that whole thing was the idea of the nation and the States, all believers are in this nation, but the States are aware a lot of the disagreements happen. You know, like the non-denominational person here might disagree with something with this Baptist here, that’s, there they’re the same country, different States. But it’s still a really tough situation for me. Cause I’m one of those people that tends to fall down the rabbit holes and end up starting to feel that doubt again.

Allen Parr: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that I’m really passionate about is establishing more unity in the body of Christ rather than division. And I think that it’s so sad nowadays, that we have so many Christians that don’t even realize that they’re being used by the devil as a tool to spread further division. We have to find that balance between what the Bible says. Jude says we should contend for the faith. And we have to find that balance between that as well as ensure that we are celebrating the things that we do have in common. So it’s a tough balance and it’s a fine line and it’s good to have conversations about theological differences, but at the end of the day, we all need to have some core beliefs of what we believe that Christian faith is all about. And if our brother or sister in Christ believes in those things, then we need to celebrate the fact that they are our brother in Christ, even though they have some differences.

Shea: Yeah, I definitely understand that. So I do a lot of ministry work in Africa and I’m in several different groups. And this reason we’re sitting here laughing is because, wow, the conversations happen in those groups. And you know, you get to this point. And I think that like I, at the beginning of this, since being military, you know, fighting Wars and, and doing all of these things and, and going into places and, and causing destabilisation in order to achieve victory, you know, that that is the goal of war destabilize your enemy in order to achieve victory. And so I come out of the army. Okay. Yeah. I haven’t been around the church, you know, the whole 40 something years of my life. Right. But I come out with this other knowledge of war and how things happen and I’m, and I’m looking at the church and, and I’m not judging in that sense, like all these evil doers, no, I’m just like, yo, we gotta get this together.

These discussions of theology. And, and I think I’ve eventually I was trying to get into all of these conversations. And finally, I just came to a point. I was like, they believe the same thing, at least the core values. And I’m like, it takes up too much of the time, but even locally trying to get, uh, uh, ministries together, assemblies together as men. Um, I’ve been working on this for a few years now and it’s like pulling teeth or finger nail off it’s and I’m like, can’t we just, as men come together and be paired, we all just get along. And I’m just like, it is so frustrating. So it’s just like, Lord, why is everyone so torn apart? And I see all of these people just picking things apart and, and I don’t understand it. How do we start to deal with, or look at, instead of just completely ignoring the people who sometimes say, you know what, well, you guys just don’t have it.

Allen: Right. And they move on. It’s a fine line. And I understand the position that a lot of these pastors are in, because if they expose their congregation to another congregation that believes something different, then you’re taking the risk of exposing your sheep to what we believe is false teaching. Now, is it heresy in terms of, okay, this is not a Christian. I mean, this is totally not even related to Christianity or is this like, maybe not so much, but let’s say let’s take the topic of, you know, women preachers or women pastors or whatever. Right. So if, if I believe strongly that women should not be senior pastors and then the pastor down the street got a female or is a female pastor, or let’s say he has someone on staff, who’s a co-pastor. Then I see the position of the pastor. It’s like, okay, how do I in any right mind kind of expose my congregation to this because I could be sending the message to my congregation, that I’m okay with this because we are linking up and we’re doing something together in the community or whatnot. So it’s, it’s a tough situation. Um, but we have to be able to find that fine line, to be able to still fellowship with people that see things differently. And there’s so many issues that divide us. There’s the tongues issue. Baptism there’s, can you lose your salvation? Or can you not? There’s women, pastors there’s, there’s so many different issues that are dividing the church today.

Michelle: Like I started falling down a rabbit hole today when I was finalizing my notes. So this whole season is Worship Is Our Worship. And the things that come to attack you, when you start trying to pursue Christ, when you try to pursue Christ, you want to know Him better. And we have the internet. So never before have we had this much access to this many opinions, most might have a degree from a seminary or might be a pastor. And this one loves Calvin. This one loves MacArthur. This one loves Chafer. When you first come into the faith, you’re like, I need some Christian books. So you go to Christianbooks.com and you see all these different authors. And you’re like, Oh, look at the kumbaya. And then very quickly, if you look at the reviews of any of these people on the blogs and YouTube videos and all that, you’ll quickly see that this person and this person, the people that read these books don’t play nice together.

You know, and this book was written to refute everything this person said, and that will very quickly. I remember twice, it just bringing me down. There was a song I wanted to sing for offering at church back. The first year I was saved and I happened to look online, somewhere, found a website that they’re completely dedicated to analyzing every single Christian song that’s submitted to the site to see if it’s biblical or not, which I can appreciate that overall. Cause there’s a lot of songs out there that you can very quickly be singing and be led astray, but they were poking holes in the song I was singing. And so I started reading other things and reading more and more. And I was like, Oh my gosh. Every, like—pretty much half the songs I’m listening to—like what can I trust? These songs are sung at my church.

It very quickly became depression because I just suddenly could not find the truth. And in the midst of all that, the word of God was the only comfort.

Allen Parr: Right.

Michelle: And I was like, “Well, then, I’m going to just withdraw into the word of God. But then I think about all the other people that come out with different conclusions from one another. So really you can sit there and if you think on it long enough, you’re like, well, what can I trust? What interpretation can I trust? What analysis can I trust? And so I think that that’s a question many people might be asking.

Allen Parr: Yeah. You know, and, and this, I mean, so many of our problems and our misunderstandings and misinterpretation of scripture and differences of opinion, a lot of it just comes down to the majority of Christians and I’ll go out on a limb and say this, the majority of Christians have never been trained to be able to understand how to correctly interpret the Bible. And that’s not all necessarily their fault. I think that, and I’ll probably get in trouble for saying this, but I think that the church is partly responsible for that because you know, we’re in a time now where churches, many churches, particularly a lot of mega churches probably are, you know, and I love the mega churches, but I’m saying like a lot of them are more interested in like buildings, bucks and bodies and you know, trying to get everybody kind of in a small group, which is great.

My wife and I love our small group, like fellowship and huge conferences, which are all good. But none of those are a replacement of good old fashioned Bible, teaching theology teaching, what does, you know, how do we understand who God is? How do we interpret the Bible? How do we read the Bible? How do you have a quiet time? And so if the churches aren’t prioritizing this because it’s not popular and it’s not going to get a whole bunch of people to come to your church to say, Oh, we’ve got a Bible study methods class starting on Thursday nights. You know, that’s not like popular. I mean, I don’t know if I can say that, but that’s not like sexy, right? That’s not, that’s not, that’s not what people are gonna in the church. Right. I mean, like that’s not, that’s not going to bring people in. And I think that not being a priority kind of trickles down and we have basically a generation of people that are biblically illiterate. Right. I, I actually read something the other day about that. And it’s about the points, having all these points of a church. Right. And in COVID a lot of those points in a way, you know, the good kids program, the marriage program. Cause we couldn’t meet it. So all of these programs that were attractions to people, they kept people in church that kept people coming that were like, Oh yeah, you know, I can come. My kids are taken care of, they’re learning some good stuff. You know, I check that off the box. We’re seeing it. Even in our own church and some falling away, we’re not a megachurch. We’re a really small church.

Shea: I mean, we don’t have all the programs, but you definitely get more one-on-one, more in-depth. We do have a college built into our larger church, Maryland Bible, college and seminary. And so, you know, that’s, that’s available too. And so they definitely get into the Bible. They get into the Hebrew, they get into the Greek, they get into the teaching. And I, and so I can hear what you’re saying, you know, it’s good to get into the teaching. Um, sometimes we like to come out and throw out the feel-good message of what’s going on, but don’t break down the explanation around that verse. Right. And it’s like some of the verses that we’re hearing today with the climate that we’re hearing today. But if you don’t read before that verse and after that verse and you just pick out that verse, then that verse is going to say exactly what you want that verse to say, instead of what God is telling you that verse says.

Exactly. And so when I hear, you know, what’s going on in the church day and I hear all this beating, I’m just like, yo, y’all we gotta stop. Yeah. There’s gotta be a point where we sit there and I heard this in your, in your podcast the other day, and you were talking about some of the bigger groups, uh, you know, the singing groups and whether or not we should listen to them. And it’s like, there’s going to be some, some differences where unique God created us differently. You know, there’s some uniqueness in us and, and sometimes the revelation comes a little bit differently

Michelle: Because even our own pastor, very rarely, but still sometimes me and Shea will hear something and be like, wait. And we both give pause. We’re sitting 16 rows apart. Cause I’m doing the sound on or the easy worship or whatever. But afterward, we check-in and we can go to our pastor and kind of bring it up. But there was this litmus test, this spiritual litmus test in me that kind of showed, this is a little something that either I misinterpreted to be wrong, like it was worded in a way, or it was something where for a moment, our pastor was distracted or let his own opinion come in. I’ve seen many pastors do that. And I always say, they’re human. And I’m going to pray that someone that can actually speak to them instead of a blogger who will never talk to them in real life will approach them about that.

But I, I’ve never continued to listen to a pastor that just constantly saying things that alert my spirit because that’s obviously the false teaching and the false teacher, but the pastors that don’t, it can challenge people’s entire concept if they’re listening and they realize that now there’s all these other people I respect that are attacking them. So who, who, since this, person’s attacking this person and vice versa, who do I actually go to? And the biggest thing is to pray for the wisdom and the discernment and trust that the Lord gives you that. And, and so I’m always so curious why there seems to be such a propensity to do it anyway. Like if, if everyone’s praying for wisdom and discernment, why are there so many people contradicting one another in their attacks on others?

Allen Parr: The big issue that I think that, that I think is really, really key for particularly the generation we live in now is just this, the whole prosperity theology, prosperity gospel. And it’s just basically a lot of pastors basically succumbing to the pressure of telling people what they know that people want to hear rather than telling them what they really believe. God wants them to say. And it’s once again, it’s the, it’s the idea of it’s not popular. If you want me to think about it, it’s not popular to tell people that they may not ever be rich. Right? I mean, who wants to hear that? Nobody wants to hear that there’s a possibility that they may not ever be rich. Who wants to hear that? There’s a possibility that your mother who is struggling with cancer, she may not get healed. You know, nobody wants to hear that.

That’s like a depressing thought, but it’s true. Right? So if that’s the message that you are promoting, then you run the risk of a lot of people not wanting to come to your church because it’s like, Hey, this isn’t, this isn’t making me feel better about my situation, my coordinator, my listening to your Sunday sermon. Right. But if I can tell people, you know, every week, Hey, your breakthrough is on the way your blessing is coming and you’ve got divine favor on your life. And, and uh, you know, God’s going to prosper. You is going to wipe out your debt and you’re going to be debt-free, uh, next week. And you know, you’re going to be healed in the name of Jesus. Like if I keep feeding people this over and over again, yeah. They’re going to want to come back because they’re going to want to keep hearing the same thing every week, every week, because it gives them hope.

But the question is, is it giving them false hope or is it giving them true biblical hope? And I think that’s where you have a whole lot of differences of opinion today. We see that a lot in Africa. Oh yes. Big time. A whole lot. And so I have a really good pastor friend over there that I’ve been working with for probably last seven years, the whole time that we’ve been on, you know, uh, since I’ve been back to church and when we start looking at those, those points of religion, those points of, well, you do more, you receive more, you do more, you receive more, you give more, see more. Right. Right. Right. And I, and I actually, he was talking to him the other day and, and you know, so this is Africa. And he said something that absolutely blew my mind. And he, he aligns with us in, in his theology. He aligns, uh, actually he’s awesome to see a African pastor that knows grace and knows how to preach grace and teach grace and, and, you know, divide it to where it needs be where, you know, power

Shea: Comes from the throne of grace, you know, your strength. And he actually said the other day, and this, this was a, a blowout comment. It was like, there is a very thin line between a witch doctor and pastor in Africa, religious practices. Because when we start thinking of these, these, you do this, or you bring this or you, you know, you give more here and you’ll receive more of this. He says this starting to line up with what, which doctors request. And I was just like blown by that. I was like, I had a day someone to say, if you don’t pay tidy, you’re going to hell. And I’m like, okay, now you got to correct that. You know, it’s like, that’s one of those ones. You’re like, Oh, I was, I was just listening to just let that go. Right. Right, right. You were talking about you won’t be blessed. Okay, fine. You want to live bound. That’s your problem. I mean, I’ve gotten to that point. I know it’s horrible. I don’t know that’s right or wrong in my cause we do a lot of street evangelism and I don’t know if that’s right or wrong in my, in my evangelism. But if I come up to somebody now and they’ve got the three points down, father, son, Holy spirit, he died on the cross. He was raised again. You know, I just go, okay, if you want to be bound, just be bound. I mean, that’s your problem. You know? And then when I think of religion, I think of this looking, you know, and this and this trying to do a comparative does that now become pride and you know,

Allen Parr: And, uh, there’s a term for that. They call them heresy hunters. I’m sure you’re probably familiar, but like people who just like are hunting around everywhere possible to try to find some heresy. And by the way, for people who may not be familiar with what heresy means, it just a fancy word for false teaching, you know? And so there are some people, and I’ve been accused as being a, of being a heresy Hunter, which is very interesting because I’ve got like 400 videos on my YouTube channel. And very few of them are about, Hey, let me go and find this one person. And he said this, and then let me go correct them. And you know, like, there’s been a few, like I’ve done a video on Benny Hinn. I’ve done videos on, you know, a couple of other people out there, but even in those things, and this is the interesting part.

Even in those videos, I never once said these people were false teachers. I was focusing on some of their false teachings, right. Like I said, there’s a big difference. I’m not going to come out and be like, well, Bishop so-and-so is a false teacher. That’s not my place to save that. But if he says, or he, if he says something that’s totally heretical, like Jesus never died on the cross, then I’m going to correct that. You know? And I’m going to call that out as a false teaching right now. You know, whether he’s a false teacher, a nada that’s between him and God, but I do believe we have an opera sponsor ability to do that. So should we make a whole focus and purpose is to just hunt down heresy. And actually with the Bible talks about Wolf in sheep’s clothing is more so somebody that is presenting themselves as a true teacher, as a true Christian or as a true prophet.

But then they’re like behind the scenes, they’re like really trying to tear up the church like a Wolf, but should we make it a point to just chase down heresy everywhere we get? I don’t know if that, I don’t necessarily think that’s the best use of our time, but if something comes across our desk and we see it, I think we have an obligation to call it out. Particularly if you’re in a position of influence, because you’ve got to protect your sheep from those wolves, you’ve gotta protect your sheep from that false teaching so that they don’t start believing things that aren’t true and consistent with the scriptures.

Michelle: I think that’s valuable. When I, when I look at all of the things that the way that God directs us, the Mosaic Laws was over 300 things that we—

Shea: Over 600 things.

Michelle: —that we have to do a certain way. X, Y—like it became this very rigid thing, whereas in the New Testament, because someone was able to walk perfectly because Jesus did it. He was able to start asking us questions, challenging those rigid lines. Like you aren’t doing it in this specific way, but you know, the heart issue is the real reason why I said don’t do it. So don’t just look at this one line item as sin, but look at the heart of that. And you’ll realize that those roots run much deeper and affect many other components of your life. And when you do that, you understand that you are hopeless on your own to ever get it truly right. And that we need God’s grace. But what that also means is there’s infinite ways the people around you can get it wrong and still be a believer, and that we’ve been called to spread the gospel, spread the truth more than to hunt down the lies. Like you said, like Shay always is like, Oh, something came across and I feel convicted to say something, but he’s never hunting for, he never opens his Facebook to find it and, and, and hunt it down that way.

Shea: Yeah. Yeah. Those things just, just pop in. It’s almost like the spirit says, screech brakes, go on. It’s like, and you’re just on. Honestly, I’ve also learned that unless they’re willing, even in a loving way, I never do it in the group environment. I pull it outside the group environment and I reach out to them on the side. But because I think just doing in the group environment, you just put yourself into the same platform of, you know, the, or at least by vision, you know, the visual of it. But it’s, it’s amazing that, you mentioned that those verses are exactly for that.

It’s for that absolute false teaching, like, “Hey, look, like you said, did Jesus go to the cross?”

“No, He didn’t.”

“Did He die for, you know,” and, but, but you know what, if you do this, this, this, this you’re going to heaven. I’m like, “Nah,” I’m with you on that. But it’s amazing that these people, the people who go here, the vision and, and just so many people trying to say, it’s their way. I mean, look, I’m going to be honest. Even sometimes in our church, you’ll hear it.

Not necessarily from our pulpit, not in our local assembly, but you’ll hear it in that kind of background, you know? “Oh, well that church,” and I’m like, “What about that church?” You know? Cause I’m that guy that’s like, let me bridge gaps, let me go over to this church over here and just tell them I love ’em, you know, and, and be available. And, you know, I have a brother that I work with and we’ve been trying to bridge that gap between our churches for awhile. It’s been tough. It’s been tough to pull that off and just a wave of prayer. I mean, imagine if you had a church, imagine if churches started at least coming together in prayer and you have a church on this side of town and this side of town and this side of town, and now we’ve got the whole city of, like, okay, we’re in Washington, DC, Maryland, Virginia.

Allen Parr: Right.

Shea: And we have all of these churches praying on prayer points together.

Michelle: Yeah. Like literally, “He said this wrong. So he and everyone that goes there is going to hell.” And you’re like, “Whoa!” That’s the kind of thing! But you know, Paul, the two verses that I had, and I wanted to ask more questions before I brought verse because I truly—this is the place where I struggled to really understand, cause it’s tough. The balance between discernment and calling out lies versus giving people grace and understanding…there are differences in the non-essentials.

But the two verses that I had ones in 2 Corinthians 11, where it says:

“You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you. Even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach or a different kind of spirit than the one you received or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.”

And whenever I read 2 Corinthians 11 and I see that, it reminds me of those three things Paul chose to mention. Those are key points. Are they—do they know and understand? And are they preaching the Jesus that the Bible says? Are they preaching and describing the Holy spirit to align with what the Bible says and the gospel? If those three things line up to me, that’s kind of the definition of, well, what are the essentials? Well, Paul kind of lays those three out with purpose. We’re already supposed to test everything else anyway, and I can expect misspeak and difference in interpretation.

But then the other, the other verse was going into this idea in 1 Timothy 6, where it’s talking about,

“If anyone teaches a different doctrine that does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that Accords with godliness, then he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions, and constant friction among people who are deprived in mind and deprived of the truth.”

Imagining that godliness is a means of gain. This is a cautionary tale to me, where, when I look at that verse, I see some of the people that are heresy hunters falling into that same thing that they’re accusing the heretic of. So they’re saying this heretic is causing all of these things, this division, this envy, this deceit, and yet the way they’re going about it is causing the very same thing. So they’re catching the spirit of divisiveness that they are putting in, projecting on, someone else. So it’s this caution: don’t become this person while trying to protect yourself from this person. Don’t become a wolf against other Christians trying to find the wolf in the congregation.

Allen Parr: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And that’s what I was saying earlier about. I think people can be used as a tool by the enemy to create even further division and not even realize it because in their mind they’re thinking I’m doing something good.

Michelle: Right.

Allen Parr: It’s like Paul, before he was on his conversion experience, like he thought in his mind that, you know, persecuting Christians was the right thing to do because you know, Christians preached that Jesus was God. And he was, you know, a devout Jew. And it’s like, “Hey, there’s only one, God. Deuteronomy 6.” It’s like, “Hey, you know, I’m going to get rid of as many of these as I can.” And in his mind, he thought he was doing something very, very righteous only to find out later that he was fighting up against, um, you know, Christ and the church. So I think a lot of people that do this heresy hunting thing, they think that they’re, they really do think that they’re doing like, you know, a service to the Lord and everything.

And I think, like you said earlier, I believe Shea said it, it’s like, “Hey, you know, there’s some of that that can be done, but like how much better could we spend our time?” Like, instead of trying to find untruths that everybody’s saying, like, spend more time spreading the truth, spreading the gospel. Discipleship. I mean, are we going to talk about discipleship? Who have you discipled today? You know, how much time have you spent on your small group? How much time have you spent taking care of the least of these? Like Jesus says, like feeding those who don’t have any food and, and, you know, going to see those who are in the hospital that need prayer and different things like that. Like, that’s a better use of our time. And if heresy comes across, then take the opportunity to correct it.

But then even in that, do it in a spirit of love and not in this competitive, “I win, you lose” type of debate. And that’s the reason why, you know, I’ve been invited to some debates. People want to debate me on this and that and the other. And I don’t even waste time because like I said, that verse that you read about not getting involved in like quarrels and stuff, it’s not profitable. If somebody just wants to win and that’s, their goal is just, I want to win at the debate, prove that I’m right and you’re wrong. I think we have to be mindful of that.

Michelle: Right? You come into a debate in a different state of mind than if you just go into a conversation, you are already on the defensive and your whole goal is to win, not learn anything. If someone comes into a debate and learn something from the other person, that’s an unexpected blessing. And I give that person props because most people come in with a shutdown mind.

Allen Parr: Paul in the Colosseum, in Greece, when he’s with all the theologians, you know, that was the theologians or was it philosophers. Philosophers?

Shea: Philosophers.

Allen Parr: Right. And, and, and he’s, and he gives them the gospel like a few times. And then he’s like, “bye, bye. I’m just wasting my time in these debates. And these in these conversations, you know, we’re where, where we’re not getting anywhere.”

Shea: And I liked that. I’m, I’m very geared towards sharing the word of God. I’m very geared towards the putting of the love of God out there. The love that he gave with his son on a cross. I mean, I think when you come from a background of mine, that’s been so bound to pain to, to depression, to look pain, PTSD, and then you find this beautiful freedom where Jesus says, you know what? I know you’re broken and I know the way that you see yourself. And I want to change that. I want you to see how I see you, right? Who you are in me.

And when you start to, to grab that message, I’m telling you all the rest of this I’ve gone. I went through this when I first came into the rabbit holes. I remember I would come to her and I’d be like, Oh, I just heard this. Or, Oh, Oh my gosh, I don’t know. Should I listen to this person? Or, Oh, so I was there and what’s beautiful when it comes out of it is you get to a point like I’ve seen you, you just bring out the truth, you bring it biblically. You’ve got to look both at the literal. You gotta look at the history. You got to look at who’s eating, who people are talking to, you know, what was going on in, in, in that time, when you’re starting to really want to understand what, what God is doing in your life and what he’s saying to you and to lift you from where you were, what would you tell them?

Allen Parr: We got to make sure that we are being trained to properly interpret the Bible. From that training, you will be able to have your senses trained as Hebrews chapter five says to discern truth from error to discern right from wrong. You know, I think Michelle hit it on an earlier where she’s in church and she’s like, man, that’s something doesn’t sound right. I don’t quite know exactly. Put this up. Something’s off more believers need to have that type of discernment to not just accept every single thing that their pastor or their Bishop or something that they hear on YouTube or whatever. They don’t need to take that as gospel. They need to be able to DB as the Bereans and test everything and see if it lines up with the scripture. So, but then the next thing, if you are somebody that has like strong theology, just check your motives and make sure you are asking yourself, is my motive here to really correct this person’s theology and help them really understand, or am I just trying to win this argument or win this debate?

Or am I trying to prove to everybody how much I know, and also correct in a spirit of love come to that person or those people, and really express that you really genuinely want them to understand the truth. And then after that, no, when it’s time to kind of turn back, you know, like that’s all you gotta know when to fold, you gotta know, you’re not going to convince this person to see things the way you see it. And it’s at that point, all you can really do is pray for that person. But at some point you have to let the Holy spirit work on them. Um, and then the last thing I would say, don’t let differences of theology or even practice cause you to break fellowship with somebody that you consider to be a friend. If they believe you can speak in tongues and you believe that you can’t let them speak in tongues, let them pray in tongues, but don’t, don’t break fellowship and not be friends with them just because the two of you have a different perspective, celebrate the things that you all do have in common, the grace, the mercy, the forgiveness of God, the love of God and talk about those things.

And I think that if we apply all those things, we’ll be on our way. I just love everything that I’m hearing. Um, I mean, these are questions that people ask. We’re all trying. We’re all trying to put out the right message. We’re all trying to bring people to Christ. I mean, look, commandments. He, I there’s three that I know that I got to follow all the time. I love him. Number one. And then I got to love my neighbor. And then I got to share his gospel. I mean, those are the three that I just have to. I mean, those are just, that’s a solid foundation, but know that gospel? No, no what he brings to the table. And I think that we can, we can move forward in a lot of things. And I pray. I’m prayerful that. I mean, I like that too. I like your point. Number two is just our three was that three prayer. I lost track. You know what? No, but prayer, just sit there and be prayerful in it and tell people, say, Hey, look, it’s going to be okay.

Michelle: We’re called to encourage our fellow believers more than nitpick them to death. So that if anything that combined with prayer should allow them to grow in the faith as much as we are. And our pastors are in the same confusing world with the same number of contradicting opinions as we are. And they also have the spirit. So how on earth, if they’re just like me, can I expect that much more out of them to all magically agree in a way that I can’t even come to a consensus?

Allen Parr: Yeah. I think you brought up another good point. This is probably another whole other podcast, but like, we gotta be careful if I’ll add one other tip to take away. Absolutely. Be careful not to put our pastors and our leaders up on these pedestals as if they are like infallible or that everything that they say is true. That’s one of the mistakes that I think that we make in the church. We elevate our pastors to this divine status, you know, and then whenever they say something wrong or they can say something that’s off. And if somebody comes and says, Hey, you know, your pastor is off. It’s almost like they get really angry and defensive because I’ll talk about my pastor. It’s like, well, your pastors not perfect. Your pastor could be off. So I think we need to be careful about that. Yeah. And I also love that the resources that you’re putting out study the Bible, Dallas, um, seminary, um, they got some free courses.

Allen Parr: Y’all are our ministry also our school. I think we’ve got a lot to take away and you’re right there. There’s so many different avenues we could take on this. And I’m just thankful that you came on your day, man, with everything that was going on in your life, man, you’re, you’re a soldier in my book. And I just want to say, thank you all so much for having me. And I’m excited about what God is doing in and through you all first and foremost in your marriage and your family, but also in this ministry that you all have continued to do the work and just praying for God to really elevate this podcast and, and allow it to reach more people for Christ around the world. So, um, keep up the great work and, um, appreciate you having me here.

Michelle: Thank you so much, guys. It has been awesome as always. We hope you got a lot out of this episode and we want to hear your prayer requests. If you need to sermon and knowledge and wisdom like we do, we’re here to join you in that prayer. If you have questions, comments can always reach at thepantrypodcast.com as well as @ThePantryPodcast on Instagram and Facebook rate comment, subscribe, share all the wonderful things that let us get out there to more people. And you can find out more about Allen and all of his awesome ministry work allenparr.com as well as The Beat on YouTube, all the awesome links to his eBooks, the resources we’ve talked about. The Bible verses in this episode, they’ll all be in the show notes. So until next time, bye.

Shea: Bye.